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Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

Earache
I Plan to Stick Around

Let me preface this by saying, I, in no way dislike Rogers as an ISP, and am I, in no way advertising for other providers.  I have no issues with it (besides the topic at hand), and I would like to open a dialogue with Rogers employees and the community to get a better understanding of what customers want and what can actually be provided (and reasoning for it).  Also note that different providers, provide services in different areas, they do not cover all of Canada, and your location may dictate which service providers are available, therefore when discussing this topic, when I refer to a company, I'm referring it independently of services available in a given location.

 

I would like to have a discussion regarding upload bandwidth.  For as long as I can remember, us Canadians, have had the one of the worst upload bandwidth, which to me in 2017 is not acceptable any more.  Many people have begun careers at home (whether for a business or entrepreneurial) or even just brick and mortar businesses.  For a brick and mortar store, many offer free Wi-Fi to their client which ends up saturating their bandwidth.  For stay at home careerists, they depend on upload bandwidth for various tasks, such as (and not limiting to): video conferencing, transfer files whether to clients or web/file servers and etcetera. 

 

 

According to Speedtest.net Report, no provider is capable of anything over 30 Mbps.  As this isn't necessarily true as Bell is now offering 100Mbps on their Gigabit Fibe plan (which might I add is cheaper than Rogers offering).  I also know that there are smaller providers such as Beanfield that offer 1Gbps upload bandwidth (what the actual result is, I cannot say, but apparently it is close to advertised).  There is another provider in Muskoka, Ont, that offers the identical connection bandwidth to Beanfield (both are less expensive than Rogers/Bell, and have a smaller footprint as well).  

 

Seeing how 2 small providers that are turning a profit with such a small foot print, I don't see how the bigger (see wealthier) internet providers, provide lackluster upload speeds.  It may be for the fact there is more equipment needed therefore costs will go up or there are to many people on the network, but if smaller providers can achieve surely bigger more successful ones can as well.  

 

Rogers offers 50Mbps upload to business, but some providers, offer identical packaging to businesses and consumers, the price may vary as business will get static IPs, dedicated lines and/or service agreements.  In a CBC article from 2014 Why internet upload speed in Canada lags behind world average, Rogers stated that upstream usage only accounted for 13% of all traffic on its network and they expected it to increase 40% year over year.  This was 3 years ago, if I remember correctly Rogers internet service plans were called Hybrid Fibre and the fastest connection was 60/10. 

 

One of the limitations I believe is the infrastructure itself, as many cities in Canada capable of being developed as the costs are high, but that should not deter a higher upstream. Personally I would prefer the Canadian government to spend money on developing communications in Canada rather than spending money on other infrastructure projects (that will amount to money wasted).  Rogers experienced an 11% growth in Internet revenue in the 2016 Annual report (seen here),  Cable (Internet/TV) accounts for 25% of total revenue while, Business Solutions accounts for only 3%, yet according to the CBC article mentioned above, "Part of the problem lies in how telecommunications services have historically been sold in Canada. Many new innovations – think BlackBerry – have generally been aimed at businesses first, with mainstream consumers eventually following along," why would the focus be on business first when the gains in consumer products are higher?

 

According to BCE, Rogers racing to new frontier in high-speed Internet, Rogers has completed it's DOCSIS 3.1 upgrade in Toronto (no word on other cities/municipalities), and the cost to achieve this was roughly $250-300/home (est by Desjardins Securities Inc).   BCE (Bell) is currently investing $1.14B in fibre services in Toronto and according to Barclay's Capital the cost is $400-700/home using aerial infrastructure (using hydro poles to run fibre vs burying underground).  With DOCSIS 3.1 downstream capacity is 10 Gbps, while upstream is 1-2 Gbps.  In full duplex (which I believe is not the case with Rogers), upstream capacity is 10 Gbps.  The difference between BCE and Rogers, gigabit networks is one is cable the other is fibre.  Fibre will always be faster and more efficient as outside interference does not affect it, and it is able to travel further distances.  BCE is offering gigabit speeds with 70% more upstream for a cheaper price, and much more future proof with their fibre network.  

 

What I propose is Rogers to offer a much higher upstream either to match competitors (BCE) or surpass them as many Canadians are doing more on the internet, and not just downloading "stuff."  Sure there are people that will abuse it but provisions can be made to thwart that.  Many Canadians are now using cloud storage and moving large amounts of files currently can be painful (I have had to upload gigs of data to clients/co-workers), more data is being shared then ever before and will only grow as more people being switching from physical data to digital (paper vs computer). 

 

Thank you for listening/reading and I hope other Rogers customers will agree and we can get a good discussion going on here.

 

 

***Added Labels***

83 REPLIES 83

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

User8314
I Plan to Stick Around

Yes, regarding upload on rogers network it is still on DOCSIS 3.0, which limit upload to 200 Mbps for entire neighborhood or for everyone who is sharing same cable modem termination system. In comparison downstream is running on 3.1 which allow 10 Gbps bandwidth for entire neighborhood, although they are theoretical max rates for DOCIS specs, actual bandwidth available is determined by how much is available at CMTS/MDU.

 

Rogers still has to implement DOCIS 3.1 in upstream direction, which will raise max upload between 1-2 Gbps, then Rogers need to add support for 3.1 Full Duplex which will allow 10 Gpbs in both direction.

 

Why Rogers hasn't done yet that is million dollar question?

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

JohnBeaudin
I'm a Senior Contributor

@User8314

 

Rogers has confirmed that they're trying to to roll out D3.1 on the upstream next year in 2019.

As for Full Duplex it will take a bit longer.

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

User8314
I Plan to Stick Around

Oh, that is great news and long overdue for them. If I am not mistaken, I heard it will be mid year of 2019, though I was not sure about it. 

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

JohnBeaudin
I'm a Senior Contributor

There is no specific date yet for 2019, for now it's a sometime in 2019 tentative.

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

Well, we are 3/4 of the way through 2019 and still nothing... who'd of guessed

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

Not going to happen without DOCSIS 3.1 upstream. Speaking of that, from what I've seen to date, there's only one ISP in North America running OFDMA, which is Service Electric.  They appear to be located in Pennsylvania.  Kind of interesting, a very small ISP has managed to do something that no large ISP has done to date.  No doubt Rogers is testing OFDMA, and for anyone who happens to be on a CMTS that is running OFDMA for test purposes, they'll be able to see that in the signal data for the Hitron CODA-4582, and in the XB6 modems.  Testing, but, no network wide rollout yet. 



Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

One thing that people dont understand.. thats its not just as simple as 'just add it' sort of thing.. that there is so much technical in the background, its not as simple as flipping a switch.

If you look at just about any of the regular internet services to date.. upstream was always on the lower side.  Compare cable to DSL, and DSL is often even worse 😞

There are services now which do offer higher upstream bandwidth.. but generally every one I have seen, are using FIBER direct to the house.  Overall its capability is much higher and can handle doing the higher upstream (usually is bi directional same speed).
This would ultimately be the best overall to provide to everyone.
BUT it wont happen any time soon unfortunately, in my opinion 😞

Really right now, you are seeing it only in the most highest density areas like Toronto.  As the area is so dense, and with lots of high density buildings (apartments, etc) its easier to get the feed to all those areas.  The further away, and the more spread out the population is, the much more expensive it is.  Especially when you get to areas where you would having to bury all new cables across streets with no above ground lines, etc.

Rogers generally seems to have stopped it FTTH push out.. as at least on the downstream side, they are able to get the same without having to pay to get all the fiber installed.
And as for Bell.. outside of those few select areas.. your not getting FTTH.  Your getting FTTN, same as rogers.  
But your luck if your getting that in some cases, all depending on where you are.  The more semi rural you get? sometimes next to nothing.  IE:  I can get up to 1gbps downstream speeds with Rogers.. the best Bell can do for 90% of my town? 10mbps..

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

robertbutler
I've Been Here Awhile

Anybody wishing they had Bell Fibe with up to almost 150mBit to a gig upload speed?

I am a video editor and need to be able to send video files. Bell Fibe is installing in my neighbourhood as we speak but would prefer not to change when it’s available.

Anybody know of any speed changes coming soon? Rogers is not the fastest internet.

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

Be aware.. bell FIBE and bell FTTH (fiber to the home) are two different things.

Standard bell fibe, is only VDSL, where its FTTN (fiber to the node) and then still phone line to the house.  
You cant get 1.5gbsp via that.
Your probably going to get 50/10??
Only ares with direct FTTH are available to get the 1.5gbps
(which is a pretty small area truthfully)

I dont think they are able to do much further upload speeds yet, until the docsis 3.1 rollout is completed?

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

chulojay01
I've Been Here Awhile

Upload Speeds,

Yeah Rogers is behind when it come to Upload , 30Mbps its a joke in 2020.

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

As compared to what?

If you look at any cable based provider, even across the US, thats about average, if not higher.
Now, is technically the latest cable technology on paper capable of doing higher? Sure.  But its not really tested/implemented anywhere on a large scale yet that I am aware.

The only services you will really see offering any higher uploads, are areas with Direct fiber connection.
Bell is offering this.   BUT if you actually look at the footprint which it is actually available in, is actually quite small compared to the overall footprint of where high speed internet is available (let alone rural areas which dont even have high speed still).
EG: I live in an area, where I can get the 1gbps package from rogers.  But bell can not provide me more than 10mbps/.5 service (and this is up only recently from 5mbps/.25)

So there are many factors in play here.

Hopefully as time goes on the upstream will increase/get better on cable.
And if you live in an area which is service by other services which can provide that upstream, if it is necessary to the user, then its a completely viable option to switch.

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

dzz88
I've Been Here Awhile

I checked with Rogers few times in the past 2 years as I have mobile with them, but their 30 mbps is not acceptable. Wish they offer around 100 mbps at least.

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

Ishtpreet
I Plan to Stick Around

Rogers should increase the upload speed. They are lagging behind in this race of better internet. I tried to convince two friends to use rogers after they had issues with their service provider, however they said 'rogers upload speed is joke and they will never switch'. They both are content creators and require high upload bandwidth.

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

Earache
I Plan to Stick Around

The tech issues aside (apparently Rogers has stopped testing DOCSIS 3.1 on upload and are waiting for 4.0 instead), the real issue is the pricing.

 

Rogers Ignite Internet Gigabit:

1 Gbps down

30 Mbps upload

$119.99/month (yes you can get a better deal if you fight like a dog for it).

 

Bell Gigabit Fibe:

1 Gbps down

750 Mbps upload

$119.95/month (and you can get it cheaper as well).

 

There are areas that are completely owned by Rogers, thus give consumers no choice but having to use Rogers or a third-party that uses Rogers lines (most of the time cheaper but slower, service is done by Rogers which can cause issues etc).  The fact that Rogers (or potential) customers pay more for less (yes you are getting less as Bell's offering is 2500% faster while uploading, which to many is completely unacceptable that the price is identical.  Even Bell's Fibe 500 is faster while uploading.  

 

In 2020, a global pandemic hit everyone hard.  Many were forced to work from home, and that means software developers, 3d animators, Engineers etc, and using Rogers is down right a pain as a 5Gbs of file to be uploaded

would take 23 minutes in perfect conditions.  Either Rogers needs to increase upload speeds to those that want it (and not charge extra) and upgrade the equipment in the area to support it or they need to drop their price by up to 60%, until they are able to match their biggest competitor.

 

Bell is physically rolling out FTTN everywhere even during the lockdowns (as the techs don't need to interact with anyone), so if a customer wants their Fibe package it's a simple dig/connection to the home.  In the "town" next to me, less than 2 kms away they are there, laying the lines daily, and once it reaches my area, regardless of what Rogers does, I, and most likely everyone on my street (we are all friendly with each other) will switch to Bell.  No one is happy with Rogers and this pandemic has shown that Rogers is incapable of even maintaining what they currently have if EVERYONE is using it.

 

The bare minimum doesn't work anymore.  Failure to plan for the future is creeping up quickly with Rogers.  Either they need to decide to roll out FTTH across the country or figure out another way of competing.  I suspect most of Southern Ontario will have Bell fiber layed by 2024-2025, while Rogers will still be diddling about trying to decide how to gauge their customers, instead of competing on price or on tech.

 

4 people in my house. 2 students, 2 adults working from home and Ignite's upload isn't sufficient to maintain the quality we need in 2021.  I am constantly dropped from calls due to "bandwidth" issues.  30Mbps for a software developer that has developed software in the upper end of 100gb and having to upload full program executabiles of  the software (100gb+) is a pain.  Last time I did so took nearly 6 hour and a half hours, now I have collegues do it that have 1Gbps upload.

 

Even a bump back to the orginial 50 would help (a tiny bit, it would shave off about 1-2 hrs to upload the files, vs 14mins on 1 Gbps upload...)

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

-G-
Resident Expert
Resident Expert

@Earache wrote:

(apparently Rogers has stopped testing DOCSIS 3.1 on upload and are waiting for 4.0 instead)


Unlikely.  Rogers may have had some teething pains as they roll out DOCSIS 3.1 upstream but I cannot see them abandoning this effort.  I would bet on them transitioning neighbourhoods to PON before adopting D4.0.

 

The bare minimum doesn't work anymore.  Failure to plan for the future is creeping up quickly with Rogers.  Either they need to decide to roll out FTTH across the country or figure out another way of competing.  I suspect most of Southern Ontario will have Bell fiber layed by 2024-2025, while Rogers will still be diddling about trying to decide how to gauge their customers, instead of competing on price or on tech.

 

4 people in my house. 2 students, 2 adults working from home and Ignite's upload isn't sufficient to maintain the quality we need in 2021.  I am constantly dropped from calls due to "bandwidth" issues.  30Mbps for a software developer that has developed software in the upper end of 100gb and having to upload full program executabiles of  the software (100gb+) is a pain.  Last time I did so took nearly 6 hour and a half hours, now I have collegues do it that have 1Gbps upload.

 

Even a bump back to the orginial 50 would help (a tiny bit, it would shave off about 1-2 hrs to upload the files, vs 14mins on 1 Gbps upload...)


I think that Rogers has enough capacity-related issues with 30Mb/s upstream.  (... and there are more and more reports of customers getting their connections throttled if they generate excessive upstream traffic.)  Raising upload speeds will just exacerbate existing problems.  (Other MSOs are experiencing even bigger challenges due to heavy usage.)

 

Implementing D3.1upstream will help but they also need to increase capacity by freeing up additional spectrum, and they can only do that by retiring legacy technologies.  (I still haven't heard when they might finally retire Digital TV.)  They also need to upgrade capacity on their backhaul links.  Rogers can also achieve some additional interim gains by deploying Remote PHY , but this will also require deploying fibre in neighbourhoods and if they do that, it makes more sense to just roll out FTTH.

 

Things will eventually get better but big changes cannot happen overnight.  In the meantime, Rogers needs to do whatever they can to keep things from getting any worse.

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

Ok, let me just say up front that I'm not apologizing for Rogers in any way, shape or form.  Not my job and they don't pay me enough (RE's = $ 0.00) to do so.

 

DOCSIS 3.1 download (OFDM) has been running since March 2017 and appears to be stable at this point.  Yes, you're correct, it appears that Rogers has stopped testing DOCSIS 3.1 (OFDMA) upload. It's proceeding with rolling it out across the network.  That appears to have triggered numerous ongoing disconnect issues for many customers, primarily with Hitron CODA-4582 modems and possibly with the Arris XB6 which is the TG-3482ER modem.  Both of those modems are Intel Puma 7 chipset modems.  Despite numerous complaints, the Office of the President refuses to discus technical issues, the Engineering Dept is radio silent as are the forum moderators and the field techs are running around replacing modems and cables to no avail.  It appears that no single person or department at Rogers is taking responsibility for what appears to be a growing debacle.  For the customers who have DOCSIS 3.1 upload (OFDMA) running and are not affected by continuing disconnects, congratulations. Everyone else deserves a lot of sympathy and the correct technical support to resolve the problems. Best of luck 😞

 

If I remember this correctly, the load across the network has increased by about 50% over pre-pandemic levels. Every cable system is having problems, don't know about fibre based systems.  Cable systems simply were not designed for high speed uploads as the systems are a legacy holdover from analogue cable days where the download portion is the lions share of the traffic and what little upload there was, was relegated to the bottom frequency spectrum of the cable network which is more susceptible to noise, or so I've read.  So, we go into the pandemic situation with cable systems that are simply not designed to manage the loads.  The question at that point is, how fast can cable systems upgrade their equipment to match the load, and, more importantly, should they?  I think if I was a top level manager I'd be looking at the timeline to receive new equipment (months, years ??) versus the prediction for a solution to the pandemic in the form of vaccines.  Which one will arrive first, and if it appears that the vaccines will win the day and everyone will return to an office environment, albeit slowly, why even spend the money and effort to install significant capacity upgrades only to end up with far too much capacity in the near future?  I'd bet that Rogers exec's are making calculated bets on what arrives first, vaccines or potential upgrades to equipment, which might arrive months after its ordered.  Not saying that waiting for vaccines instead of ordering new equipment is necessarily the right choice, just trying to point out that Rogers is a business with a focus on the bottom line.  After all, they have an expensive baseball team and NHL contract to pay for, who needs new equipment anyways?

 

Fwiw, there hasnt' been any indication to date which would hint that Rogers plans to offer higher uploads when DOCSIS 3.1 (OFDMA) is finally up and running without any issue.  I would think that would be the natural outcome of having OFDMA up and running, but, as I said, there's no indication to date of that finally happening.

 

Fibre: just to mention, Rogers has been installing Fibre systems as well.  Don't know what technology is used as the customers who have it installed are radio silent for some reason.  Bell is laying fibre in numerous places, but, I'd bet that if you looked at the cable and fibre subscriber maps, you would see that Rogers cable has a far larger footprint compared to Bell's Fibre.  If Rogers can overcome the OFDMA issues and quickly move to higher uploads, that would be an instant game changer across the network. One can only hope.

 

As for Bell's fibre installation, dig out your property map, find the actual property markers on your property and make sure that you absolutely understand the easements as they exist on your property.  I can guarantee that you won't be happy with Bell's contractor when they're wandering all over your front yard, digging it up as they see fit. Say goodbye to your pristine driveway and maybe your front yard, depending on how the conduit is run.  Either way, you and your neighbours won't be happy with the result.  We have a roll of fibre waiting for installation at the demarc beside our garage.  That's been there for over 5 months and I don't expect Bell to be ready for home installations for at least six months, probably longer, when they've completed all of the backend installations.

 

As much as I agree with the requirement for higher uploads, it comes down to a race, Rogers OFDMA versus Bell's completed fibre installations.

 

DOCSIS 4? Now there's an interesting topic.  The spec is out, but, at this point that's probably all that's out.  Intel sold the Home Connected Division to MaxLinear, which is the company that produces the Cable Tuner for the Intel Puma 6 and 7 modems, where the white Hitron CODA-4582 and XB6 (Arris TG-3482ER) are Intel Puma 7 modems.  What Maxlinear does with the Puma modem design is anyone's guess.  For now, all they've said is that they're in the game, which isn't saying a whole lot for any company.  Broadcom, which makes the BCM-3390 chipset as found in the Technicolor XB7 (Technicolor CGM-4140COM) went looking for development money from the ISPs, to which the ISP's said "Nyet".  Broadcom was burned by Comcasts initial support for Full Duplex, whereupon Comcast then changed direction.  So, it appears that they've settled for potential commitments for DOCSIS 4 modems.  The other part of the DOCSIS 4 debacle is Comcasts support for Full Duplex DOCSIS (FDX) that would allow upstream and downstream traffic to occupy the same block of spectrum, versus the Extended Spectrum DOCSIS (ESD) option which would run separate downstream and upstream frequency blocks, with cable frequencies extending upwards to 1.8 Ghz where today they stop at 1.002 Ghz.  So, that forces any chipset company to design and manufacture one integrated system that supports both visions of Docsis 4.0, or, design two separate modems, one for each DOCSIS 4.0 version. No wonder Broadcom didn't want to do anything without financial support.  So, as they say, may you live in interesting times.

 

There's no easy and fast answer to increasing upstream bandwidth.  That's just not going to happen overnight.  For those with Fibre to the Home (FTTH) with fast upload capability, they should consider themselves lucky. Right time, right place as they say.  For everyone else, as they say, hurry up and wait.  You'll probably receive a pandemic vaccination before you see higher uploads, either thru Rogers or Bell.



Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

coolspot
I Plan to Stick Around
I can't believe 4 years after this thread started, we're still stuck at 30mbps...

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

robertbutler
I've Been Here Awhile
Oh I definitely know the difference.

I am happy to report I can upload my 5-6 gig video files to Frame.io in less than a minute or so.

So good 🙂

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

-G-
Resident Expert
Resident Expert

@coolspot wrote:
I can't believe 4 years after this thread started, we're still stuck at 30mbps...

The problem is that the basic underlying technology of Cable Internet has not changed much in the past 4 years.

 

DOCSIS is still relatively competitive in areas where Bell only offers xDSL-based services, but neither Rogers nor anybody else could have predicted that the dominant home Internet technologies would become so totally insufficient so quickly.  D3.1 upstream will help somewhat, once the kinks get worked out.  However, Rogers now urgently needs to accelerate plans to roll out next-generation technologies that not only leapfrog Bell's current FTTH offerings but their next-gen tech as well.

 

Like it or not, DOCSIS will become just as inadequate and obsolete as DSL is today, faster than they ever expected, and Rogers cannot continue to hope and pray that the world will go "back to normal" anytime soon because this IS the new normal.

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

stepy2015
I Plan to Stick Around

All I want is symmetrical gigabit but sadly I don't think that will happen anytime soon, I am willing to beta test anything if it means faster and more consistent upload speed but Rogers is not offering anything and shows, no sign of improving their services anytime soon.

 

We just got Gigabit and I already notice a difference in how long it takes me to upload but its still not great and I feel like you should not have to upgrade to Gigabit just to get 30 mbps upload at minimum I think it should be 100 mbps, I wish I lived in an area where I could get bell FTTH 

Re: Let's talk Upstream Bandwidth

coolspot
I Plan to Stick Around

4 years later and we're all still waiting for faster upstream. Once Bell Fiber Internet comes along, I'll be signing up for it. My coworker just got it and it's impressively fast with extremely low latency. It really makes Cable looks like yesterday's technology. 

 

How the tables have turned.

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