Second DOCSIS 3.1 Modem being released mid-2017?

[RyzenFX]

I was reading up on Rogers' Q4 2016 results, which were released on Janurary 26, and I happened to catch my eye on to something that points to a release of a SECOND DOCSIS 3.1 modem:

"Our adoption of the X1 platform not only includes access to the most advanced IPTV solution, but also to Comcast’s state-of-the-art customer premise equipment, including advanced DOCSIS 3.1 Wi-Fi gateways, Wi-Fi extenders, and wireless set-top boxes as well as the ability to send video to other third party companion devices (such as tablets and smartphones).

By mid-2017, Rogers plans to bring its customers the new advanced DOCSIS 3.1 Wi-Fi gateway, which is capable of delivering up to nine gigabits per second over Wi-Fi within the home, supports voice, home monitoring, and automation applications, and can act as the core in-home gateway for video and data applications."

Sounds promising! 

***Edited Labels***

[Alex4161]

@RyzenFX

We already have the latest modems that support 3.1 but the Rogers infrastructure is not ready for that yet.  The release mentioned the 3.1 rollout mid 2017 which is what others in the forum mentioned as well.  

[Double_K]

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@RyzenFX wrote:

I was reading up on Rogers' Q4 2016 results, which were released on Janurary 26, and I happened to catch my eye on to something that points to a release of a SECOND DOCSIS 3.1 modem:

By mid-2017, Rogers plans to bring its customers the new advanced DOCSIS 3.1 Wi-Fi gateway, which is capable of delivering up to nine gigabits per second over Wi-Fi within the home, supports voice, home monitoring, and automation applications, and can act as the core in-home gateway for video and data applications."

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Clearly, "Over-promising & under-delivering" will be the case here.

There is no device that is "capable of delivering up to nine gigabits per second over Wi-Fi" currently on the market, and thus, Rogers will miss the mid-2017 date.  Maybe they meant mid-2019?

802.11ac 4x4 MU-MIMO can only deliver up to 3.466 gigabits per second.

They would need an 802.11ax device to reach those speeds, and while "draft" devices may come out later this year, that WiFi standard won't be ratified for another couple of years.

[borford]

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@Double_K wrote:

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@RyzenFX wrote:

I was reading up on Rogers' Q4 2016 results, which were released on Janurary 26, and I happened to catch my eye on to something that points to a release of a SECOND DOCSIS 3.1 modem:

By mid-2017, Rogers plans to bring its customers the new advanced DOCSIS 3.1 Wi-Fi gateway, which is capable of delivering up to nine gigabits per second over Wi-Fi within the home, supports voice, home monitoring, and automation applications, and can act as the core in-home gateway for video and data applications."

---

Clearly, "Over-promising & under-delivering" will be the case here.

There is no device that is "capable of delivering up to nine gigabits per second over Wi-Fi" currently on the market, and thus, Rogers will miss the mid-2017 date.  Maybe they meant mid-2019?

802.11ac 4x4 MU-MIMO can only deliver up to 3.466 gigabits per second.

They would need an 802.11ax device to reach those speeds, and while "draft" devices may come out later this year, that WiFi standard won't be ratified for another couple of years.

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Don't know of any wireless device that is capable of getting nine gigabytes per second. Realistically, 802.11ac - 70-100+ Mbps typical, higher speeds (200+ Mbps) possible over short distances without many obstacles, with newer generation 802.11ac routers, and client adapters capable of multiple streams. So I think that was definately a mistake in print?????

[RyzenFX]

They could be referring to the new modem's capabilities of achieving 9Gbps. However, if they do promise to bring a modem that is capable of those speeds it'll be pretty useless to household consumers.

[borford]

People are so obsessed with Internet speeds nowadays that they have lost site of what makes up the total experience. We have forgotten that (using a computer as example) you have to take into account, your processor speed, your main bus speed, you available ram and it's speed, the space available for virtual ram as well as background processes running. Devices like media boxes and game systems do NOT incorporate the latest networking technologies. They cheap out.

Speed test will test your internet speed available to your device but not your device speed.

[BS]

@borford  I will start off by agreeing with you opinion 100%.  

The best I can get in my home on my current equipment, phones and laptops (the laptops are all very high end, with the top equipment for the day when obtained a little over 2 years ago - one totally equipped gaming laptop handed down by my son-in-law when they made their own home gaming and media serving server, and one is a completely loaded top of the line business Lenovo i7 and so forth).

Unfortunately, but realistically for the time, the network cards are all n top end.

Well at that time, 300 Mbps was the theoretical max speed for those cards, and sure they have Gbps network ethernet cards, but everything in our home is wireless, except for the one lower end desktop used for business purpose in the home office - don't need overkill when all you use is the Internet, email, and office software - it was an XP media server originally, so for computing purposes, it does the job, just fine now on Win 7.0

So, in my case, I run on my 60 Mbps, and that really is stil overkill in our household (there are only 2 of us).

So when they try to push me to 100 Mbps, I just laugh, and am actually discussing going lower - the only issue is bandwidth cap, which if necessary we can go third party companies, since we are considering cutting the cord and going with OTT TV solutions.

As to whether people will have the technology to even support the speeds they are talking about, that is the ay standard, which is capable of 10Gbps over WIFI, and obviously it depends on the firmware in the modem, and since they keep insisting to put them all together (modem and router) into gateways, they seem to be running into serious problems as we can see in the beta testing thread and multiple threads on the ac gateway and the new CODA gateway, and last I read, they are running into not only poor speeds and ping times, but also many bricked modems - can I say "not production ready".

There is a big difference between theoreticaly able and production proven - just look at the rollout of the IPTV solution that wouldn't scale as another example. 

ac can theoretically do 1.3 Gps, again depending upon many factors - and the current experience that Rogers is having with the modems right now are questionable.  Not possible to know just how many people are not getting those speeds.

And even if your modem is getting those speeds, as you said, it depends upon what your device is running.

ay is just becoming available on some devices this year, from Acer, Dell, and a few others.

ax is two years away and capable of close to 20 (again, theoretically), but the working reports from the Internet Standards association indicate that they expect ax to be out later than 2 years, although some companies may try to beta test before the standard is finalized and approved, and they are basing that on the facts that the experience with ay has not been good yet.

And I am left wondering what conditions are necessary for Gbps with the CODA and the previous modem.  Note the CODA DOCSIS 3.1 standard was only certified late November. The standard for both is AC, so both are only capable of 1.3 Gbps max.

Have a look at this article on the various wifi standards.  http://www.howtogeek.com/234751/what-is-802.11ac-and-do-i-need-it/

Note that the article suggests that unless you are watching multiple 4K streams, you really don't even need that speed capability, and that most devices aren't even going to have the network adapters to handle it anyway, plus they also suggest that for most people, n will do  - that is all I have on all my devices and I am more than happy with my performance (but I do acknowledge that I am a relatively low end user of Internet bandwidth).

The speeds may benefit you, but be aware whether your current devices even support it. I know mine can't even support a theoretical max of 450 Mbps over WIFI devices in my home, so even the ac modem I am now on  because they said I needed it for the speeds I am getting (60Gps 200 GB cap).

Interesting experiment for thought.  I am in collingwood for a holiday at a small resort - the speed test shows a little under 10 Mbs down and 1 up, and ping of around 8-9.  I have been watching netflix, and out of curiousity, hooked up three devices and brought down netflix on two and a network station on another, all with 5Ghz speed and n modems.  Sure the original start of the speed was a bit slower than I am used to, but minimal - Netflix says that you can run HD over 5 Mbps on one device quite fine.

So I think the message here is two fold - be aware of the marketing around speeds, if you are like me, you are not using even what you have - you may download more things, increasing your bandwidth use, thereby requiring an increase in your required bandwidth, but even that in our case usually sit around 30 - 40 GB on our usage, which actually means we would be fine with the 30Mbps package with the lower bandwidth.

And at the moment, there seems to be issues with even getting the maximum speeds to the modem as we see in the many posts about the two flavours of Gbps capable modems that there are significant stability issues occurring, and that some stores are recommending that people drop back to lower packages until it all gets cleaned up.

So I appreciate learning how the issue of bandwidth speeds actually comes into play and why I will never have Gbps anywhere in the near future, and I also have no intenetion of buying 4K anywhere in the future, and none of my devices display it anyway.

Good to learn more about what we use, to get beyond the marketing about the need to meet increasing demands for streaming and 4K distribution content.  Uggh, I still have analogue to digital adapters going to two tv's in my home and on the next package change they are suggesting I have to pay for those adapters.

Becoming an educated consumer.

Bruce

[NLJ]

@BS, I think you are confusing how AC works. It all depends on how many streams the client device is capable of. Each stream is 433Mbps. So if the device only has one 5Ghz AC antenna, the max theoretical bandwith is only 433Mbps. 2 stream devices are 867Mbps and 3 stream devices are 1.3Gbps. Basically multiples of 433Mbps. The CODA is 4x so 1.73Gbps.

So far, smartphones that are AC capable only have 2 antennas so they are only capable of  867Mbps. However, most laptops for the past couple of years have 3 antennas and can do over 1Gbs on 5ghz WiFi AC without issue. 

But one would rarely saturate their bandwith over the internet. Not to mention the troughput will vary as well.

Currently the only way to take advantage of 3x or 4x AC speeds are to transfer files on the LAN.

As far as streaming goes, 4k Netflix needs approximately 20Mbps to be consistent. I don't remember how much it actually needs as I have not monitored real-time traffic on a regular 4k stream. However I have measured 4K HDR streams over Netflix and it bounces between 21-23Mbps. So in order for it to be stable, 30Mbps is recommended.

I have had 3x 4K HDR streams simulteneously when I had the 100U Ignite package and it did it without a hiccup on the older Cisco modem in bridge mode and Netgear Nighthawk R7000.

The higher end gateway modems don't only bring in the internet and make it wireless, they also have more processing power and RAM to be able to handle households with multiple devices all at the same time.

In most cases Wireless N 300-600Mbps routers are fine for low traffic households but the 2.4Ghz channels can get bogged down because of neighbouring networks and the N routers don't tend to be intelligent enough to switch channels as fast as newer AC routers. Even then you will need a device that can handle 3x streams of 2.4Ghz to get full 450Mbps which most do but not many can take advantage of 600Mbps N.

The biggest advantage of AC devices to me are Beamforming and some routers like the Netgear Nighthawk has Beamforming+ which does Beamforming to client devices that don't support Beamforming. And Smart Connect is another extremely useful feature. Different manufactures call it different things it is basically binding both bands with a single SSID. It was implemented very well on the Netgear Nighthawk R7000 in a way that my devices always camped on 5ghz unil I went to extreme corners of coverage and it would seamlessly switch to 2.4Ghz automatically without disrupting transmission. Mesh based setups do this now as well and it works great.

However, the newer AC routers also include half baked features like MU-MIMO which is pretty useless because nobody has been able to implement in properly.

Currently I have the 250U Ignite with the CODA in bridge mode connected to 3 OnHubs in Mesh. The only reason I upgraded to the 250U was because it ended up being $3 cheaper a month than the 100U with the 2 year commitment so I went for it.

As far as the DOCSIS implementation, it is just evolution and trying to be competitive. Unfortunately marketing pushes numbers and most people would pay a little more for higher speeds even if they don't take advantage of it.

[gp-se]

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@NLJ wrote:

@BS, I think you are confusing how AC works. It all depends on how many streams the client device is capable of. Each stream is 433Mbps. So if the device only has one 5Ghz AC antenna, the max theoretical bandwith is only 433Mbps. 2 stream devices are 867Mbps and 3 stream devices are 1.3Gbps. Basically multiples of 433Mbps. The CODA is 4x so 1.73Gbps.

So far, smartphones that are AC capable only have 2 antennas so they are only capable of  867Mbps. However, most laptops for the past couple of years have 3 antennas and can do over 1Gbs on 5ghz WiFi AC without issue. 

But one would rarely saturate their bandwith over the internet. Not to mention the troughput will vary as well.

Currently the only way to take advantage of 3x or 4x AC speeds are to transfer files on the LAN.

As far as streaming goes, 4k Netflix needs approximately 20Mbps to be consistent. I don't remember how much it actually needs as I have not monitored real-time traffic on a regular 4k stream. However I have measured 4K HDR streams over Netflix and it bounces between 21-23Mbps. So in order for it to be stable, 30Mbps is recommended.

I have had 3x 4K HDR streams simulteneously when I had the 100U Ignite package and it did it without a hiccup on the older Cisco modem in bridge mode and Netgear Nighthawk R7000.

The higher end gateway modems don't only bring in the internet and make it wireless, they also have more processing power and RAM to be able to handle households with multiple devices all at the same time.

In most cases Wireless N 300-600Mbps routers are fine for low traffic households but the 2.4Ghz channels can get bogged down because of neighbouring networks and the N routers don't tend to be intelligent enough to switch channels as fast as newer AC routers. Even then you will need a device that can handle 3x streams of 2.4Ghz to get full 450Mbps which most do but not many can take advantage of 600Mbps N.

The biggest advantage of AC devices to me are Beamforming and some routers like the Netgear Nighthawk has Beamforming+ which does Beamforming to client devices that don't support Beamforming. And Smart Connect is another extremely useful feature. Different manufactures call it different things it is basically binding both bands with a single SSID. It was implemented very well on the Netgear Nighthawk R7000 in a way that my devices always camped on 5ghz unil I went to extreme corners of coverage and it would seamlessly switch to 2.4Ghz automatically without disrupting transmission. Mesh based setups do this now as well and it works great.

However, the newer AC routers also include half baked features like MU-MIMO which is pretty useless because nobody has been able to implement in properly.

Currently I have the 250U Ignite with the CODA in bridge mode connected to 3 OnHubs in Mesh. The only reason I upgraded to the 250U was because it ended up being $3 cheaper a month than the 100U with the 2 year commitment so I went for it.

As far as the DOCSIS implementation, it is just evolution and trying to be competitive. Unfortunately marketing pushes numbers and most people would pay a little more for higher speeds even if they don't take advantage of it.

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Excellent explanation. In my opinion Gigabit is more for people with lots of devices using lots of bandwith all at once. Also the CODA supports beamforming and MU-MIMO. 

[NLJ]

MIMO and Beamforming are standard on AC.
MU-MIMO is part of Wave 2 AC devices which the CODA is and some of the newer AC routers that came out late last year like the Netgear Nighthawk R7800 X4S and a few others.
More speed is always good. But we need consistency which the Hitron modems just can't seem to handle it seems!

[BS]

@gp-se and @RyzenFX  I have not doubt that I am confusing things - it is not an area that I even had to think about when I worked in the industry of networking for mid size companies - I biggest discussion then was whether we would swap out all our hubs and replace with switches, and keep a few hubs around.  We ultimately went with switches, as we didn't have many hubs anyway - in fact, we had very little internal network when we began back in 2001.  Wireless came next and faster broadband, and then we began to think about Gbps switch ports from server as backbones to the switches up stream.  

Well, without a doubt I am very confused about the whole business of WIFI standards, and hadn't even run into the discussion of antenna counts.  I know none of my devices support ac, so the discussion is strictly a learning experience for me - I don't need the speed and I learned my networking engineering and decisions based upon a clear understanding of what we needed our needs were and with limited funds as often existed in IT at that time, you tried to provision for the future, but we were constantly swapping older parts around to "upgrade" as old stuff died, and new stuff came in.  I handle my home networking the same way - I look at my needs and decide what I need based upon that.  My confusion comes from all the marketing statements being made by the companies which clearly for me is a constant oversell.

But having said all that, I do really appreciate the "learning experience" of finding out what is going on and meeting my own needs.  The more I research and ask questions, the more I understand.

My last comment is on the statement of most people will pay a little extra for higher speeds, even if they don't meet it.  For me, I am not most people, never have been and am on fixed disability income while everything else like my house and utilities go up, something has to give and my wife has recently been laid off and is having a challenging time finding work, but hope that things work out.

So I am actively trying to dig through the marketing and get down to my own needs. I will misunderstand much of this as I try to learn and appreciate getting the "corrections", but also appreciate knowing that much of what is being pushed out there and marketed, is of no use to me, and provides one more area that I can begin to cut back on my "wants" in life in order to deal with "needs".

It was nice when I had money to just say, ah 20.00 per month, no big deal, less than a coffee a day, but I don't even buy a coffee a day, have got rid of our second car, downgraded our insurance coverage across the board, looked to cheaper banking, and now it is Rogers turn.  I do want Internet, because it saves my sanity as I am housebound, TV, I could let go tomorrow, just my wife holding back on that one as she gets used to learning that we need to cut a back.

So whenever I get a chance, I try to get an awareness of what I really can afford without compromising the basic needs of life.  I am sure I am not the only one in this boat.

But it definitely is not easy to cut through the speed marketing, and wifi marketing discussions - you would think that we weren't able to cope back on the slower speeds, and technology, yet we did.  I am sure there are user desires, and corporate needs that could benefit from all this, but me, I am not even at the level of the typical user.

Thanks, I have learned about as much as I need now and appreciate all the input and expertise that you have provided to the old players like me.

Bruce

[RyzenFX]

It's been quite a while since the post was last updated, and we're getting even closer to mid-2017 (YAY) which means that the release of the second DOCSIS 3.1 modem should be coming in the next few months.

I've done a bit more research and I found this article on Multichannel.com specifically highlights that Rogers is planning to "debut a new advanced DOCSIS 3.1 WiFi gateway by mid-2017."

We obviously don't know which gateway will be released, but we are given a clear hint stating that Rogers will be using CPE designed by Comcast. This leads me to only 1 possible gateway: the XB6?

Currently, this modem is still not released to the public and is still undergoing testing by Comcast employees.

As of recent, comcast has publicly announced that it's first two suppliers will be Arris and Technicolor and has also announced that it will deploy a two versions (one running off of the Puma 7 chipset, and the second running off of a Broadcom chipset). They are however releasing the version with the Puma 7 first. 

Do keep in mind that this is what I'm GUESSING is going to be the modem that will be released. There could certainly be a DOCSIS 3.1 gateway that we haven't heard of yet. Who knows?

[gp-se]

I'm looking forward to the new gateway, Arris is a very good company so I'm expecting great things! But either way it'll be put into Brdige Mode running behind my pfsense box.

Anyone who has an old computer lying around should give pfsense a try, it changed my life..lol

[BS]

@gp-se  You and me too - I am currently looking for a replacement router for my older one as it only has 2.4Mhz WIFI - I don't need AC as I have no devices with it, but the prices have dropped and someday I may own devices with AC on them - these high end devices I own still have lots of life in them, and I know how to replace parts which means I can keep just about anything going for a while.

Any suggestions for a reasonably priced WIFI router with the directionality ability (can't remember what it is called) where it basically triangulates where you are located and optimizes the antenas on the router to your location, dual band and some reasonable control over firewalling, logging, guest modes - needs 4 switch gb ports for ethernet.

Yes, definitely, things will be changing rapidly in the next couple of years as they go IPTV and the comcast model (unless they change their minds yet one more time, or run into big problems implementing the new models).

It is interesting as a geek, but ultimately, it is just entertainment for me, as everyone who knows me, we are downsizing, don't need speed, may go digital antenna and media server (I know how to build those things on Linex with PVR capabilities and multiple tuners), and just the right speed to meet my needs.

But then again, I still drive a 2004 Focus, with no options too - only technology in it is my TomTom GPS that I have had for over 10 years now and still gets map updates and traffic through FM signal - no link to a phone and data required.

Bruce

[JohnBeaudin]

@RyzenFX

With all the efforts on the CODA-4582, I have a hard time to believe we will see a new modem mid 2017, If I am wrong and it happen to be released , I hope they will go with the broadcom chipset.

[BS]

@JohnBeaudin  My first thought was as yours is, with all this work, can't see it, but...

They are backed up against the wall at the moment trying to "stay ahead" of the competitors and their performance and speed availability.

We have seen huge marketing by Rogers and reporting in their financials about just how many customers have gone to the 100 and above, and we again see a continued push for new customers to get this speed.

Since the telephony company version of Internet and Cable remains limited for most outside of Toronto, and until they fully roll out FTTH their highest speeds run in the 50 range, not that those speeds aren't more than adequate to run their FTTN for IPTV, and people have been running on those speeds for a long time and unless you are the type to run multiple HD and above TV's and other devices in your home, it really is not an issue for most people.

By taking this strategy, Rogers has been able to advertise GB available to the whole customer base, yet, the modems and infrastructure have not proven themselves to be stable at those speeds yet.

They have also been able to get public awards for "fastest speeds to the majority of their customer base", and other things like that which is like comparing apples and oranges, because the key is what speed and performance is required to meet my computing, entertainment, and communication needs.  I personally have no need to move to higher speeds on the thought that "I may buy a 4K TV in the future".  Until I do and I see that it negatively impacts me, I don't need it.

So having said that Rogers is certainly pushing the case for higher speed Internet, as is the other companies, and for some consumers, that is very true, but at the moment, it appears to me as just another process of, look how we are the best compared to others.

But will we see a new modem, that is all speculation on all of our parts, but I guess it depends upon whether the current modems being rolled out will fit well in the Comcast model.  We saw how Espial's desired model did not roll out as an interim solution on the Cisco boxes, and then Cisco pulled out of the business anyway and went back to what they do best - switching and load systems - they still are the company that drives the world Internet and telecommunications systems on the back end.

So if the Hitron modem, which was not moved to with the inhouse IPTV development that was dropped for Comcast (we have to remember that whatever model they use, it has to serve both TV and Internet and all other services that depend upon that line coming into your home), turns out to work well with the rest of the Comcast infrastructure, we may see them for a while.  Although, if you check on XFinity's web site for their X1 services, Hitron is not listed in the acceptable devices, so I suspect that Rogers is not only trying to get a stable fast network in place on the existing hardware, but will also have to test it all on the Comcast system prior to implementation.  Time will tell.

Bruce

[JohnBeaudin]

Bell is pushing hard to bring FTTH to all Quebec and Ontario by 2020. Rogers is probably aware of that fact, so the enormous leads they have in rural places and where FTTH is not available is going to disapear. Rogers will have to be TOP NOTCH to go against FTTH. But just like you said, time will tell, but things are going fast.

[RyzenFX]

I just found a video that may be worth looking at. Although I have mentioned that the XB6 might be the next gateway, I found that Hitron is currently working on a version of the CODA-4582 that has an 8x8 WiFi antenna. 

Gregory Fisher, Hitron CTO revealed that Hitron is currently working on an 8x8 gateway that is going to be launched in June of this year. The timing of this launch falls directly on Rogers' mid-2017 launch of their second DOCSIS 3.1 gateway. Could this new Hitron 8x8 gateway be the next gateway we're going to see on the Rogers network?

[gp-se]

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@RyzenFX wrote:

I just found a video that may be worth looking at. Although I have mentioned that the XB6 might be the next gateway, I found that Hitron is currently working on a version of the CODA-4582 that has an 8x8 WiFi antenna. 

Gregory Fisher, Hitron CTO revealed that Hitron is currently working on an 8x8 gateway that is going be launched in June of this year. The timing of this launch falls directly on Rogers' mid-2017 launch of their second DOCSIS 3.1 gateway. Could this new Hitron 8x8 gateway be the next gateway we're going to see on the Rogers network?

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I'm still hoping they go something non Intel Puma

[JohnBeaudin]

I heard the new CEO really wants to push for X1.

[gp-se]

http://mobilesyrup.com/2017/04/18/rogers-says-it-will-launch-its-comcast-x1-based-iptv-offering-in-t...

Launching 1st Quarter of 2018, they are already upgrading the equipment.