Captcha Issues

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I'm a Trusted Contributor
Posts: 746

Re: Captcha Issues


@User14 wrote:


I am merely reporting my experiences to let the "Community" know what is happening.  I managed to log on this morning in my usual way through the Community Mailer process and ended up with 3 captchas.  No Access Denied but a lot of "clicking" this time. I tried 9 clicks on the first Captcha, but I guess it wasn't a traffic light. Smiley Mad

9 clicks for the Crosswalks, but it failed.  4 clicks on the last Captcha worked. 22 clicks total! 

Captcha Traffic lights.jpgCaptcha Crosswalks.jpgCaptcha Crosswalks 2.jpg

 

 

 

 


My apologies ...I should not have tried to put words in your post .  

I have found that 95% of the captchas i get are 3-5  clicks  with the majority being four  if it makes a difference to what you do .  Why a computer designed to sort them  could not figure them out  most of the time is beyond me.

Thank you  @RogersLaura for  overriding the word police in my last post  . Smiley Wink

I'm a Trusted Contributor
Posts: 462

Re: Captcha Issues

Today, 30 Dec 2018   ~12:05pm. I tried to log in directly at  https://www.rogers.com/consumer/home

 

Sign in As page.jpg

No Captchas! I was able to see the MyRogers page but I went directly to Community Forums.  The forum page showed I was not signed in, although I was shown as logged in at "Users Online" on the bottom of the page. 

Signed out and then signed in directly again at  https://www.rogers.com/consumer/easyloginriverpage

or  https://www.rogers.com/consumer/easyloginriverpage?showModal=true  ?  

Looked like this:

My Rogers Sign in.jpg

 

Still NO Catchas! I was able to see the MyRogers page and went directly to Community Forums. This time I was shown logged in at the top right. 

Still very inconsistent depending upon how you try to log in. 

Some login pages work and others don't.

Resident Expert
Resident Expert
Posts: 2,399

Re: Captcha Issues

In a manner similar to @OLDYELLR , I always try to sign into my Notifications page, using Chrome. I often go days or months without seeing a Captcha.  I have it bookmarked.  Perhaps part of your issue is exacerbated by using different login points and different browsers.

 

https://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/notificationfeed/page

 

When I travel, I use Firefox and often encounter Captchas then, but I put that down to cookies on my MacBook Pro (and browser) being different from my Mac Mini at home.  I just haven't bothered downloading Chrome to my MacBook Pro since I use it so little.

 

Yes, the forums should be easily accessible from any (compatible) browser and any (compatible) computer/OS, however, it feels good when I stop banging my head against the wall and find something that works most times.



I'm a Trusted Contributor
Posts: 651

Re: Captcha Issues

I usually log in from the MyRogers page and sometimes get the captchas and sometimes not. They are a bit annoying but I can live with them if need be.

What is more irritating is that very often while reading a thread or trying to reply to one I am automatically signed out of the forum and there is no way I can get signed back in. It still shows me as signed in at the bottom of the page.
If I return to MyRogers I am usually still signed in there,

I'm a Trusted Contributor
Posts: 746

Re: Captcha Issues

Since my last post here I have been to a couple of websites that have used captchas .. Both used them in what I thought was an appropriate manner ,and that was BEFORE  registration  to sort out the bots .  Does any one know  ...why Rogers is using captchas  POST registration and what is it actually protecting anyone from ? 

I have had a captcha every time out of the last eight times I have logged in .

Thanks 

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I'm a Trusted Contributor
Posts: 462

Re: Captcha Issues


@barndoor wrote:

Since my last post here I have been to a couple of websites that have used captchas .. Both used them in what I thought was an appropriate manner ,and that was BEFORE  registration  to sort out the bots .  Does any one know  ...why Rogers is using captchas  POST registration and what is it actually protecting anyone from ? 

I have had a captcha every time out of the last eight times I have logged in .

Thanks 


For me, it seems to be random. I thought you only got one Captcha at the start of the day, but I guess not.

Either I get this log on form with the Captcha Notice:

 

Captcha notice.jpg

Or, I get this one, without the Captcha Notice. No rhyme or reason that I can figure out. 

Maybe it depends upon where you start to try and login. 

Could they have figured out a better system. you Betcha! Smiley Wink

 

Captcha no notice 2nd login of the day.jpg

 

I'm a Trusted Contributor
Posts: 746

Re: Captcha Issues

Can anyone  direct me to information that this is an appropriate use for captchas   please  .  So far I have read half a dozen articles and non so far have  suggested that captchas are even needed here  in the way they are being used. 

Thanks in advance  for any info .

I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,123

Re: Captcha Issues

To @barndoor  and others, I have been following the threads with interest, and I do have the same question asked by Barndoor - just what is the purpose.

 

Let's consider the two primary purposes of a captcha or recaptcha as the two types.

 

I got these by Googling - I will comment on the irony of that in a moment.

 

First is the prevention of the creation of mass user accounts on forums and the like where bots could then begin to post by algorithm.  Think of the Facebook issue of the US election and other communication and social media sites.

 

In one article I read, there are various strategies that can prevent this that are less of a pain than Captcha.

 

1. is a hidden field that bots will detect from the code and try to fill based upon the code on the website of fields to be completed, but a user can't see it.

2. is the use of the I am not a Robot, a simple captcha like way of catch bot behaviour, which bots beat only 23% of the time, the article I read.  It has been demonstrated in other studies that all the captcha methods can be beaten.

 

It can also be used to prevent spam posting by bot on a legitimate account.

 

This would seem to be the purpose of the Captcha for the forum - guess there is concern that a user will use a bot to "spam the system" with responses - that is the only valid reason I can see that, but there are so many other ways to capture that type of behaviour through firewall tracking, traffic monitoring, etc.

 

Now back to Google for a second - maybe the purpose of the captua screens in revenue stream.

 

Early captua's of distorted letters were used by google to do things like identify distorted text for the NY Times, as scanned and OCR's text had poor accuracy - bu clipping the distorted text and presenting it to people in the screen, they were able to do a store old newspapers onto digital media with 97% accuracy and do it in 4 months, where it would have taken years with people one by one reviewing errors.

 

A second purpose for them was to build the scanning of their large Google Books libraries.

 

I could see with the new ones with all the focus on stop signs, signs, crosswalks, buses, cars, etc, maybe be a way to digitize vague representations required for automated cars and detection of key features on the roadway.

 

But one of the things made about the use of these tools, is that the level of security achieved from preventing whatever you are trying to prevent from bots must exceed the amount of error and frustration for the customer, or the user will move on.  Currently a typical Captua studies show that on average a captcha process takes around 45seconds to complete, and errors are made 23% of the time.

 

Rogers must make an attempt to ensure that multiple captuas are not being presented in order to not frustrate the customer.

 

I get captuas on my phone all the time, never on my laptop anymore, and on my phone, it is an extremely awkard method with many errors, as I use a specialized keyboard which doesn't like to hide when the captcha shows up.  I have to backup one screen with the left arror to get rid of the keyboard and see the screen, and as a final note, one of the greatest criticixms of Captcha's is that they slow the user down and frustrate them as they want to move to their work, and secondly for those with visual disabilities, and even the auditory one is awkard to use, it is a huge burden on their ability to even get in.

 

Interesting also, is the Captch product Rogers is using is provided by Google, so what is Google doing with the data as it is demonstrated that they have been using data from these for quite a while.  Once again, we become the product, and the overal security gained and reducing of spamming and creation of fake accounts by bots is questionable in my point of view.

 

Keep reporting your challenges - for my self, I couldn't be bothered once it stopped, but there still remain times, where it is click, fail, click fail, over and over again, and yes, I have the two account challenge issue like @57  describes.  One has a forum account the other doesn't and sometimes I accidently forget to log out of my "customer account" login and get refused by the forum, and get caught in loops, until I close it all out, and start all over again.

 

I work with it, but I also get the impression that maybe because the users who are reporting these are logged in frequently, maybe the algorythims treat frequent in out as bots - I don't know, but I agree, it is a pain for sure, and I personally see no valid reason for its use - there are already rules around spam, I would hope their firewalls would catch a attach on their site due to a bot that got by and shut it down, and I would hope that there is accounts are shut down if you use the wrong password too many times.

 

When you consider that most forums I am aware of at best they have the single I am a robot, none of my financial and shopping accounts have them, and it seems that they are disappearing with new technologies.  So hopefully they pack them in at some point.  Where it seems very odd is that I put in MyRogers log in and it asks for a Captcha - I am not going to the Forums - My forum is populated with my credentials and password which I follow high level secure password practices, and then it wants to confirm I am not a robot - there are more effective ways of confirming this type of security level - questions like when you log in on a different computer, you are challenged, infrequent use leads to challenges, 2 level verification - Google confirm your profile and security information intermittently, locked out accounts after multiple failures, etc.  Captcha is not the tool for this level.

 

So keep the discussion going, maybe Rogers is listening in (not the moderators, but the security team) and listening to these legitimate questions and the challenges that the practice is creating and that it is no longer industry standard.

 

Plus my own curiousity - this is a Google tool API and has been used for pure business purposes for Google having nothing to do with us as customers of Rogers or Rogers business, but more for their own goals of building data to achieve their own corporate goals.  Not that the Catcha method was designed to do this, they just figured out that it could be done this way, not to validate the user, but to validate the data presented and compared by millions of people, in effect we become a OCR and image recognition tool.

 

I will keep following - try to be patient and keep pushing at them.  I don't actually log on much anymore, just read, so it is not impacting me very much, and I don't log in to MyRogers very much either.

 

Bruce

 

 

I'm a Trusted Contributor
Posts: 746

Re: Captcha Issues


@BS wrote:

 

Now back to Google for a second - maybe the purpose of the captua screens in revenue stream.

 

 


And now the pieces of the puzzle are falling into place . Smiley LOL

Thanks Bruce .

I'm a Trusted Contributor
Posts: 462

Re: Captcha Issues

@BS   That is quite a lot of info for a technician to digest.  

@barndoor  is making the same case as you that about these security tools. "The level of security achieved from preventing whatever you are trying to prevent from bots must exceed the amount of error and frustration for the customer".

You have to wonder what the future holds:  I am not a robot - checked by a robot    Smiley Wink  and if it is worth the effort.

 

More frustrating for me however, is logging into to my "customer account" to view my data, then being refused when I try to open the link to the Community Forums. I constantly get caught in this loop of being in the forum but not being in the forum to post. This is more frustrating and time consuming for me. As you say:  click, fail, click fail, over and over again!  Once you are in this loop, also notice that there is no possibility to "sign out" in order to sign back into the Community Forum. You are stuck there until you close out of Rogers completely, then start all over again by typing Rogers Community Forums.  Of course, you get the Captcha gauntlet of painsticks but it is only a secondary frustration for me.

The final challenge is not having this issue addressed at all. Remember your 2017 case of "Am I really being ignored?"  where @57  indicated that he was not receiving PMs.  Both you and 57 only had 2 character IDs and that was the cause of the problem.  I think we are having a similar technical problem here that is not being analyzed.   

I doubt that "Logging into the Community Forums" has been made difficult by design, but it has not been addressed for at least two years that I can see. Perhaps the Lithium technicians don't have the time to read the symptoms of the problem being posted here or this issue is not a priority.  

 

   

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