$25 Basic Cable

[X318]

I currently have digital light TV. Roger's told me that if I move to an area that has Ignite available then I would not be able to subscribe to any RF TV package (which Roger's calls digital cable). I would have to subscribe to an expensive Ignite bundle which includes IPTV if I wanted to get TV service from Rogers. The $25 basic TV package would not be available to me. Is Rogers not mandated to have the $25 basic package available to everyone?

***Edited Labels***

[57]

I'm pretty sure that Ignite also offers a basic/starter package for $25, however, that doesn't include any equipment, which you'd need to rent on top of that and you only get about 35 channels.  You can contact Rogers in any of the ways outlined in the following link:

https://www.rogers.com/consumer/support/contactus

Almost no-one uses that package any more, however, if you're interested, I'm sure something along those lines is available.  You just need to be persistent, patient and civil when talking to the CSR.

[-G- · Accepted solution]

@X318  As far as I can tell, Rogers is still selling a Digital TV offering to those who want the basic standalone $25/month Starter Package.  Go to https://www.rogers.com/web/consumer/ignite-bundles/get-iptv to see the Ignite TV bundles, scroll down to "Just want the basics?" and click the Details button; it will currently take you to: https://www.rogers.com/consumer/tv/starter-package#/starter-channels

I would guess that at some point, Rogers will eventually base their basic (TV-only, no Internet) Starter Package on Ignite TV technology (similar to what Bell does in their Fibe TV service areas) but I don't think that they are ready to offer such a service yet.

If you happen to be an Ignite Internet customer and want to add a Starter TV package, you can do that by getting the Ignite Starter bundle, which adds basic $25/month TV service to your Internet package.

[X318]

I called Rogers a few more times with my question.  Sometimes they said I would be able to get the $25 package, sometimes they said it would not be an option for me.  I went to "Contact Us/Share a Concern".  I posed my question and asked if they could resolve the conflicting answers that I was getting.  I did not get a response.

I think the answer you gave is correct.  Rogers has just set up the website so that the $25 package is not that easy to find.  One would not expect that you would have to go to the Ignite page to find the $25 package since the $25 package is not an IPTV Ignite service.

[Babylegs1]

the digital starter package is available if you are only adding basic cable. The 24.99 does not include the cable box or xtra theme packs and channels. 

[-G-]

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@Babylegs1 wrote:

the digital starter package is available if you are only adding basic cable. The 24.99 does not include the cable box or xtra theme packs and channels. 

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For too many people, $25/month is A LOT of money... but it may be an affordable option if they already own a set-top box and do not have to rent one.

The problem here is that this service is available from Rogers, is shown on their web site, and it should be as easy to order as any other service, and yet some current subscribers are apparently being told that they cannot continue to receive this service when they move.

[57]

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@X318 wrote:

One would not expect that you would have to go to the Ignite page to find the $25 package since the $25 package is not an IPTV Ignite service.

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Since Legacy Digital Cable is no longer available, then it's the only place they can put it.  One may need to be persistent and patient with the CSRs since it's not something that they would normally handle now. If the CSR will not, or is not capable of providing you with this package, ask to escallate to second level.

[X318]

I got a call from a Rogers manager.  She said that the definitive answer is that if I move to an area where Ignite is available then if I wanted to continue getting TV service from Rogers I would have to subscribe to an Ignite IPTV bundle.  The basic $25 package would not be available to me.  I asked her if that did not contravene the CRTC requirement that a basic $25 TV package be available to everyone.  She said someone would get back to be about that.

[Babylegs1]

sorry, but she is wrong. By getting the ignite it means you are being forced to get internet because ignite runs off the internet. What if you are someone that doesn't need the internet???  The starter pack is perfect for someone looking for basic cable and nothing else.  I understand if you needed starter cable and internet that you would have to go to ignite starter package for 124.99 but for just basic cable you do not need to 

[57]

Interesting discussion. When Bell Fibe first launched, Bell didn't have the option to have a "TV Only" service.  You had to buy a package with internet (The TV signals come via the internet "pipe", so the argument was that you needed to have both since they couldn't be "separated").  In April 2012 Fibe (TV only) became available and was called "Zero-rated Internet".   It was also very difficult for customers to obtain, especially at first.  I'm guessing that Bell was able to "separate" the TV signals and the Internet signals so people who subscribed to that option didn't have access to the Internet.  I believe they did this by "hobbling" the Internet portion to almost zero.

Since Rogers licenses the IgniteTV technology from Comcast, it's possible that this "separation" is not technically feasible at this time, since there may not be a "basic cable" ($25/mo) or similar requirement in the US.  Perhaps Rogers is looking for a waiver (Bell have been able to circumvent certain CRTC regs due to technological limitations in the past).   It may be as "easy" as hobbling the Internet side of things on Ignite, but IgniteTV is "included" in the download bitrate you pay for. The download/upload rate can be adjusted at the modem by Rogers but perhaps not separately for TV/Internet with the equipment that Rogers is using...

In the meantime, it would probably be possible for Rogers to meet the CRTC basic cable requirements by providing Legacy Digital Cable for customers requesting basic cable.  Will Rogers make this easy for the customer - probably not - as this doesn't exactly provide them with a lot of profit.  It'll be interesting to hear what eventually comes back from Rogers on this topic.

Edit: One thing that Bell did was make the rate for TV only packages quite expensive (list price for Good, Better, Best TV channel packages).  I don't recall seeing much discussion regarding "basic cable" ($25) on the Digital Home forums regarding Fibe. Of course, neither Fibe nor IgniteTV are "cable" in the old sense of the name - they are IPTV.

https://www.digitalhome.ca/threads/fibetv-without-internet-add-on-now-possible-2012-04-via-retention...

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@X318 wrote:

I got a call from a Rogers manager.  She said that the definitive answer is that if I move to an area where Ignite is available then if I wanted to continue getting TV service from Rogers I would have to subscribe to an Ignite IPTV bundle.  The basic $25 package would not be available to me.

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As far as I know, Rogers does sell and is required to provide that $25/month Basic TV package, to anybody that wants it.

  I asked her if that did not contravene the CRTC requirement that a basic $25 TV package be available to everyone.  She said someone would get back to be about that.

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Here is the CRTC page concerning Basic TV and à la carte channels: : https://crtc.gc.ca/eng/television/program/alacarte.htm

The ruling came out when the industry had reached a point where TV services were getting too expensive, the "big companies" were only offering mega-channel packages, and customers did not have any options that would allow them to pick only the channels that they wanted or that would allow them to receive only a basic channel package at a reasonable price.

The "big companies" are not charities.  I don't think that they have any desire to offer a Basic TV service nor to they want to promote it.  I don't know if any of them go so far as to disincentivize sales teams that sell Basic TV or who do not successfully up-sell customers to another package.

There were lots of reports of shenanigans after this ruling came into effect, where equipment and installation fees made the Basic package even more expensive than previous offerings, and that forced the CRTC to monitor the implementation.  The bottom line is that the "big companies" had to offer customers the $25/month basic package, provide them with free access to their networks to receive it, and they were not allowed to tie the Basic TV service to more profitable services, such as Internet, nor could they force customers to pay additional exorbitant fees.

The proposed ruling put IPTV services into a bit of a grey area; they were still relatively new at the time.  The independent IPTV BDUs cried foul because they could only sell TV services that are tied to their own Internet offerings, and they had to pay the "big companies" wholesale rates for access to their networks and "last-mile" infrastructure.  The independents got an exemption to the network access requirement but still had to offer a Basic TV bundle.  However, Bell had to offer a $25/month Fibe TV package AND provide the network access (basically an Internet-like service with no Internet access) at no additional charge.

Presumably, when Rogers phases out Digital TV, they will still be required to provide a Basic TV service in areas where they provide the last-mile network infrastructure.  That's going to be a challenge with Ignite TV; it was never designed to be delivered purely over a closed network and it also integrates tightly with other Internet streaming services.  Until then, they currently fulfill their regulatory requirements by offering a Basic TV bundle based on their legacy Digital TV platform.

[-G-]

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@57 wrote:

Interesting discussion. When Bell Fibe first launched, Bell didn't have the option to have a "TV Only" service.  You had to buy a package with internet (The TV signals come via the internet "pipe", so the argument was that you needed to have both since they couldn't be "separated").

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Bell does offer a $25/month "Starter" Fibe TV package but to get it, you also need to either purchase a (soon to be discontinued?) 4K PVR for $600 or rent one for an additional $25/month.  I don't think that this package a big seller.

Bell actually does deliver Fibe TV from a separate internal network.  It requires a separate PPPoE authentication to access it from a Stinger DSLAM, special firmware support in their modem to access through a 7330 ISAM, or accessed through VLAN 36 on FTTH.  They also prioritize Fibe TV traffic.  This is different from "Alt TV", which is an OTT service that is streamed over the Internet.  (I don't know how things will work when they transition Fibe TV from Mediaroom to the MediaFirst platform.)

[X318]

 I got a call from the Rogers' president's office.  He also said that if I move I would have to subscribe to an Ignite bundle if I wanted to keep getting TV service from Rogers.  According to him that did not contravene the CRTC requirement to provide a $25 basic TV package.  His specious logic was that the cheapest Ignite bundle at $125/month was actually comprised of two separate subscriptions.  One subscription is for a basic starter TV package at $25/month fulfilling the CRTC requirement.  It just so happens that in order to get that $25 TV package you must also subscribe to internet service at $100/month.  Obviously this does not fulfill the intent of the CRTC regulation.  However, he said Rogers feels they are able to get away with this since the situation with Ignite bundles falls within a grey area of the rules.  I thought the rules prohibited tied selling when providing a $25 TV package.

Rogers' rationalization is ridiculous.  They could just as easily say that they're offering a basic TV starter package for $1/month except that you must also get internet service at $124/month at the same time.  That would make just as little sense.

[-G-]

@X318 I just read the Starter package overview -- Have you tried going to a Rogers store to see if you can order the basic TV Starter package through them?

[ten10]

I'm in the midst of this same issue. I have no desire to get Ignite and want to downgrade my digital TV to the basic package. Did you end up being successful at getting this done?

[OLDYELLR]

With the proliferation of fibre internet, competitive TV packages are becoming popular using IPTV.  When Rogers Ignite was introduced, I had a look at it, but it it would have cost me twice what I was paying and I would have had to switch my ISP tom Rogers, so it was definitely a no-go.  With Rogers Digital Cable I had the now unavailable VIP package, which gave me 600-odd channels, many duplicates, but still not some I really desired, like Fox News. So I made the switch and subscribed to an IPTV package offered by my ISP and cancelling Rogers Cable. I ended up saving money while getting channels I really wanted. In fact, the base package offered was just $20 plus STP rental. In my case it was an easy choice because Rogers was not my ISP. But  if you're tied to Rogers you may have to make some decisions switching to a more economical service.

[X318]

I've asked the CRTC whether Rogers is breaching CRTC regulations.  The CRTC has given Rogers until Sep 21 to respond to my concerns.  Once Rogers responds, the CRTC will decide if they need to take further action.

[ten10]

Thanks for the update, and good on you for following through! Keep us posted on here, if you don't mind. Has been very helpful.

[ten10]

So I have an update from my side which is that Rogers strangely did not put up any fight when I asked to change to their most basic/starter package, despite it not being listed online. I think their hangup with your situation is that you moved, so that's how they claim they can't offer a basic digital package vs my situation (already owns their PVR and is clinging to digital while slowly downgrading services and cable package over time) who they may deem a lost cause to try and upsell.

[X318]

I got a call from the president's office in response to my complaint to the CRTC.  She said that the four other people I talked to at Rogers, including the head of sales and another person at the president's office were wrong.  The $25 digital cable TV starter package is available to everyone and no additional services must be purchased in order to get it.  How to interpret this?

Is it just a case of major incompetence?  Is it instead a situation in which Rogers' employees are deliberately misleading customers in order to increase revenue?  Call me cynical but I would bet on the latter.

Of course, maybe the most recent answer I got is wrong and Rogers will continue to tell people they can't have the basic package.  It's quite a muddled situation from a company that one would hope would do better.

[OLDYELLR]

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@X318 wrote:

I got a call from the president's office in response to my complaint to the CRTC.  She said that the four other people I talked to at Rogers, including the head of sales and another person at the president's office were wrong.  The $25 digital cable TV starter package is available to everyone and no additional services must be purchased in order to get it.  How to interpret this?

Is it just a case of major incompetence?  Is it instead a situation in which Rogers' employees are deliberately misleading customers in order to increase revenue?  Call me cynical but I would bet on the latter.

Of course, maybe the most recent answer I got is wrong and Rogers will continue to tell people they can't have the basic package.  It's quite a muddled situation from a company that one would hope would do better.

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Technically that's true.  See here,

https://www.rogers.com/business/products-and-solutions/business-tv/plans-and-pricing/starter-package

But check the FAQ, the line

If the CRTC states that $25 is the maximum that can be charged the Starter package, why am I paying ...

The $25 maximum applies to Starter content only. The CRTC specifically excludes equipment charges from that amount.

You get the starter pack for $24.99 (+tax) but you can't watch it without purchasing or renting a STB.