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NextBoxes kicked off the network

FredGarvin
I plan to stick around

Anyone else having digital TV NextBox problems?

I have three of them, two 4642HD's and one 9800 PVR.

Yesterday (Thursday the 6th) we woke up to find the two 4642HD boxes stuck on -01- after being rebooted, which I guess occurred during the usual nightly download of the guide and any software upgrades. They were operational up to 10:00 PM Thursday night.

I have rebooted them several times with no luck.

This morning (Friday the 7th) the 9800 PVR is frozen at -01-.  It was operational until 1:30AM last night.

Rogers telephone support had no idea other than the go to Ignite spiel.

I did get to speak with a very nice manager, who couldn't help me technically unfortunately but was also part of the retention team.  If we do stay with Rogers at least we have a reasonable Ignite package to go with.

However after being a customer for 32 years (30 of them with minimal problems) and the last two years at close to $250.00 a month and now this . , staying is not my first choice. Thanks to the big monopolies there is no other choice beyond OTA as Bell doesn't have Fibe in my area (they have the nerve to offer satellite. I live near Stouffville). All of the other third party IPTV choices operate on Roger's cable infrastructure.

I am in DM conversation with the moderators but it seems there is nothing technically that they can do.

Just curious if I am the only one or are others being force relocated to Ignite?

 

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Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

FredGarvin
I plan to stick around

Update #3: as of Tuesday morning everything is back to normal.

The service group was quite good at keeping me updated by text.

Don't know what the end solution was but the signal levels are where they were last week.

I can say that my theory of it being frequency band related was incorrect.  Once I realized that many of the missing HD channels were available in SD and were in the 400 and 500 MHz bands.

Anyway my thanks to the Roger's service group who solved the problem and to the 1st level phone tech lady who opened the ticket.

Next project is moving to Ignite so I'm sure I'll be back to pick at the brain-trust.

Have to go pull some Ethernet cables. I'm too cheap for Screen Beams and can't use power line adapters thanks to GFI breakers.

Thanks very much to everyone who offered advice and shared their wisdom with me.

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18 REPLIES 18

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

57
Resident Expert
Resident Expert

1. Have you been able to measure the signal strength and S/N ratio at these boxes. A box would need to be "up" to be able to do that. Try another reboot by unplugging the boxes - sometimes they come back on their own after several tries.  See the following link:

 

https://www.digitalhome.ca/threads/57-faq-tips-for-sa-cisco-stbs-also-pace.17719/

 

2. You may be able to check your signal strength at your Internet modem - any useful information there?

 

3. When you contacted Rogers, they should have been able to check the signal strength and S/N ratio at the boxes.

 

4. Yes, Rogers is attempting to migrate all customers to IgniteTV, so they are not providing much assistance to Digital Cable customers. IgniteTV has now been around for close to 5 years.  It is rumoured that Digital Cable will end around the end of 2023 for most customers.

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

FredGarvin
I plan to stick around

Hi 57,

I constantly check levels of the set tops and my modem.

I have rebooted them at least four times each to no avail.

We have very bad frequency TILT here along with varying signal levels day to day so I've had to install a variable gain amplifier to handle the fluctuations. On top of that I have some longish cable runs (longest is 70 feet, shortest about 15 feet, plus two at 50 feet).

I was running a two split ahead of the amp back in the winter where I discovered the signals were really falling off.

A tech came out and said it was my buried cable and he put in a temporary which improved the signal levels but not by more 3 to 4 dBmV.

When I checked levels on Wednesday I use channels 6, 7 and 8 as my checks because channel 7 (City TV a Rogers company) is always lower level by about 8 dBmV and on typically a 400 to 500 MHz band where as channel 6 (CBC) is permanently at 123 MHz and channel 8 (CTV) is at 153 MHz.

Unfortunately I can't measure the incoming signal directly without some rewiring and now with the boxes locked out I can't measure anything other than a 3250HD which is still operational, for now anyway.

Also Rogers won't be able measure the levels now either unless they can peak at the 3250HD.

My CGN3-AC modem levels are pretty good although the delta between high and low is sitting at 5.2 dBmV with a high of 5.6 (in the 600 MHz bands) and the low of 0.4 in the 700 MHz bands.

An extra note on the 3250HD, it doesn't get the City TV (says it is tuning) and all of the Stingray channels (700 MHz band) are not coming in.  Again the TILT issue.

You are very correct about signal levels though, if the street signal is bad I'm only amplifying . .

My thought is that the signal Rogers uses to upload the guide and software may be compromised.

Unfortunately for me after extensive web searching I haven't found a reference anywhere to what hanging up at -01- means.

 

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

FredGarvin
I plan to stick around

Update: had read a old post some one had written about thermal issues with the NextBoxes so I figured I would open one of mine up to check.  I found a very heavily dusty motherboard so I hit it with a can of air to clean it, plugged it in and viola, it went past -01- and booted up fully.

Unfortunately it wasn't the solution I'd hoped for as the other NextBox and the 9800PVR surprisingly came back to life without touching other than a reboot, albeit partially. They are only  showing channels in the 100 and 500 MHz bands, so CBC and CTV - yes, CITY TV (the Rogers channel) no and no Stingray music channels or even the weather channel.

I'll guess it was something to do with the Guide upload signal gone wonky and perhaps the moderators were able to re-zap the signal.

To 57, thank you for your help and wisdom in previous posts that I've read here.

The signal levels on the channels I can get are at normal (for my system) levels.

I'll update this post (if I can) when all channels hopefully comeback.

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

57
Resident Expert
Resident Expert

I'm guessing you probably have a poor return signal so that the node or head end is not getting the signal to send the SDV channels.  This could be a bad splitter or line, or even the port on the box (although doubtful if several boxes are affected).  The best way to check incoming signal and return signal is to temporarily put each box as close to the demarcation point in the house as possible, removing any splitters upstream, etc.

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

FredGarvin
I plan to stick around

I'll have to give that a try tomorrow when the Mrs. is out shopping.

I have a 6 way splitter I've been wanting to replace the 8 way with to save a couple dB loss each way, so this gives me a chance to measure levels directly on the 9800.

The amp I have has a +12 dB gain on the return path but if the signal is being knocked down by the cable runs and splitter there may not be much left to amplify.

I did install a MOCA filter on the incoming line a couple of weeks ago so that adds another 1.5 to 2 dB of loss each way as well.

I've been blaming frequency TILT for this and had not considered the return path signals.

Thanks again for your help 57!

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

@FredGarvin here's an experiment to try.  Connect the incoming Rogers cable directly to the modem cable. 

The connection between the two cables should be made with an F-81 connector, which looks like this:

 

https://www.homedepot.ca/product/ideal-3ghz-f-splice-adapter-10-pack-/1000751479

 

When the modem is up and running, log into the modem, navigate to the DOCSIS WAN tab and copy the entire downstream and upstream set of signal tables.  

 

Place your curser just in front of the Downstream Overview line, hold down the shift key and scroll down and to the right until your curser is sitting just after the last character in the very bottom table. There are multiple tables on that page. Keep scrolling down the end of the very bottom table. With those tables selected, release the shift key and use Ctrl c to copy the data. Use Ctrl v to paste the data into a post.

 

Without the amp or splitter in place, that will give you and us a better idea of what your real signal levels look like.  From there, it should be possible to see if there is anything that needs to be done to the external cable. 

 

 

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

57
Resident Expert
Resident Expert

The amp may be the issue.  They do go bad, as do splitters. If you connect a box near to the demarcation point, an amp should not be necessary. What you're looking for at the box(es) is roughly zero dB signal strength and as high a S/N ratio as possible.

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

FredGarvin
I plan to stick around

Hello Datalink,

I log this info twice a day for myself.

I think I learned to do it from your previous posts, so thanks for helping out.

They look within Roger's spec, signal to noise is pretty good.

Here you go:

Downstream Overview
Port IDFrequency (MHz)ModulationSignal strength (dBmV)Channel IDSignal noise ratio (dB)
1591000000256QAM-0.200740.946
2585000000256QAM-1.200640.946
3579000000256QAM-0.700540.946
4597000000256QAM0.200840.946
5603000000256QAM0.600940.946
6609000000256QAM0.9001040.946
7615000000256QAM1.1001143.377
8621000000256QAM1.6001240.946
9627000000256QAM1.300140.946
10633000000256QAM1.7001340.366
11639000000256QAM1.1001440.366
12645000000256QAM1.2001540.946
13651000000256QAM0.4001640.946
14657000000256QAM0.4001740.366
15663000000256QAM-0.3001840.366
16669000000256QAM-1.1001940.366
17675000000256QAM-1.3002040.366
18681000000256QAM-1.6002140.366
19687000000256QAM-1.3002240.366
20693000000256QAM-2.0002340.366
21699000000256QAM-2.2002440.946
22705000000256QAM-2.8002540.366
23711000000256QAM-2.9002640.366
24717000000256QAM-2.8002740.366
Upstream Overview
Port IDFrequency (MHz)ModulationSignal strength (dBmV)Channel IDBandwidth
138700000ATDMA - 64QAM39.50086400000
221100000ATDMA - 64QAM36.00053200000
332300000ATDMA - 64QAM39.50076400000
425900000ATDMA - 64QAM37.7506640000

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

FredGarvin
I plan to stick around

Hello 57,

I ran the numbers before (ie: with amp & split) and with direct connection (rebooted the 9800 before measuring).

Unfortunately my layout prohibits me from having a box next to the incoming signal so there is 50 feet RG6 between the incoming signal connection and the TV, also the MOCA filter is removed.

CBC (ch 6, 123 MHz.) before 9.3 dBmV, direct 3.7 dBmV

CITY TV (ch 7, 0) before and after 0

CTV (ch 8, 153 MHz.) before 7.0, direct 1.3

TSN4 (ch 26, 159 MHz.) before 6.7, direct 1.0

So the amp is giving me about a 6 dB boost overall.

From previous measurements CITY TV is typically in the 400 and 500 MHz bands.

All of the other channels I was planning to measure (Weather, TSN1, Velocity and Stingray music) are all saying: Loading. One moment please.

 

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

57
Resident Expert
Resident Expert

@FredGarvin wrote:

All of the other channels I was planning to measure (Weather, TSN1, Velocity and Stingray music) are all saying: Loading. One moment please.


Extremely likely to be a return signal problem. SDV channels are not coming through, only the channels that are already being sent to your neighbourhood.  The issue is a cable, or splitter, or similar in your home, or something outside your home preventing a proper return signal. Rogers should have picked this up when they looked into your signal.

 

The reason I asked you to go as close as possible to the demarcation point is that this usually eliminates any issues inside your home like splitters, etc.

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

@FredGarvin just to confirm, are those signal levels observed with the inbound Rogers cable connected directly to the modem cable?  

 

If that's the case, then yes, they're not bad.  But, when you connect an 8 port splitter to the inbound cable, you're going to see an 11 to 12 dB drop in signal levels, in both directions.  That puts the downstream signal levels to all of the devices in a -9,8 to -14.8 or more, signal range.  Over the years, the signal level thru the external cable drops, so, many years ago, the signal level to the end devices might have been ok, today, it might not be ok.  

 

Here's a link to the Antronix spec sheet for their splitters.  You might have the 8 port splitter installed:

 

https://www.antronix.com/datasheet?id=ds-1011-ss_cmc3000_series.pdf

 

If you look at the CMH3008H specs, you can see the typical signal drop thru the splitter.  

 

The solution would be a powered amp such as the MVRAM901G-B2.  Here's the spec sheet:

 

https://www.antronix.com/pdf/ds-1183-ar-a01_mvram901b_g2.pdf

 

Thats a 0 dB gain amp which is built for upstream frequencies ranging from 5 to 85 Mhz and downstream frequencies up to 1200 Mhz.  The current frequency ranges are 5 to 42 Mhz upstream and 5 to 1002 Mhz downstream.  

 

A secondary choice would be a MVRAM902B/ACP-EZ.  Here's the spec sheet:

 

https://www.antronix.com/pdf/ds-1153-ar-a02_mvram902b-acp-ez.pdf

 

That's another 0 dB gain amp which is built for 5 to 85 Mhz upstream and 5 to 1002 Mhz downstream.  

 

Both of those are MoCA amps, not that you need a MoCA amp, but, from what you indicated earlier, you need up to 8 ports.  

 

In either case, I would connect the internet modem to the VOIP port, which is not amplified and therefore doesn't generate signal issues.  Your present signal levels should allow the 4 dB drop thru the VOIP port, enroute to the modem.  

 

You should be able to talk with tech support to have a field tech drop one of these off at your home, and at no cost.  Specify the no cost part when you talk to tech support. 

 

Don't know if you've been following the various conversations in the forum regarding the switch to the Ignite (read Comcast) XBx modems and the the Xi6-A, Xi6-T and XiOne set top boxes, but, this is probably the last year that you're going to be able to run your nextboxes.  Rogers has not come out and publicly stated that all customers are being forced over to the Ignite system, but, there are no pricing deals available for the current legacy systems.  So, the writing is on the wall and according to rumours, end 2023, start 2024 might be the final date where the legacy systems might be dropped from use.  Again, there's been no plan, publicly announced as to when that date will be or what will happen to customers who hang on until the very end. 

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

FredGarvin
I plan to stick around

Hi Datalink,

Indeed with the impending demise of regular digital TV I was actually just reviewing several of your posts on using MOCA as I have a 50 foot run where I really don't want to have to pull Cat6 or 7 cable.  My other locations are already wired for Ethernet (don't like WiFi, to much RFI/EMI noise already).

In front of my 8 way Amphenol BDS108H splitter (just today replaced by a Leviton 47690-G6 2 GHz splitter to save a couple of dB to compensate for the MOCA filter) I have a variable gain Winegard HDA-200.  I had to go with a variable because of daily signal level variations I was seeing last year. This is why I do the DOCSIS check every morning to see if I need to boost or cut the signal.  I used to believe that the CATV pole amplifiers would have variable gain control in them but if they do the closest one to me doesn't work.

The HDA-200 has a 12 dB gain on the return path.

All of this is bit moot though as my issues have only occurred over the last couple of weeks.  The configuration of my amp/splitter were put into service last summer and have been working well up to three weeks ago.

I started getting a lot of audio dropout and pixelation between 7 and 8 PM like many others have stated when watching Yes TV for Wheel of Fortune and Jeopardy. after a service call the field tech determined my buried line was bad after 31 years and he ran a temporary. We did see a signal level improvement by 3 to 4 dB but the audio drop outs and pixelation are still occurring.

In a post I recently read apparently some of the Ignite users are experiencing the audio dropouts and pixelation issues.

I will most likely be ordering Ignite next week after the long weekend. The manger I elevated to in my last support call was very and also part of the retention team.

 

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

FredGarvin
I plan to stick around

Update: just spoke with a level 1 tech who issued a ticket for a service trip to the area.  Her thoughts are something has gone funny at their end.  Maybe all the rain last Wednesday got into something (my thought not hers).

 

I agree with you.

The 50 foot RG6 run (approx -4.5 dB loss) was direct from the input/ground connector to the 9800, even took out the MOCA filter.

I was hoping the 12 dB return path gain on my amplifier would be helping get those signals back to wherever they need to get to.

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

FredGarvin
I plan to stick around

Update #2: late yesterday all of the channels have appeared on the old 3250HD box.

The two NextBoxes and the 9800 still have the limitations that appear to be to the HD channels.

Our channel 7 (City TV) still says Loading: One moment please, however the SD (standard definition) City TV channel 133 works.

 

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

FredGarvin
I plan to stick around

Update #3: as of Tuesday morning everything is back to normal.

The service group was quite good at keeping me updated by text.

Don't know what the end solution was but the signal levels are where they were last week.

I can say that my theory of it being frequency band related was incorrect.  Once I realized that many of the missing HD channels were available in SD and were in the 400 and 500 MHz bands.

Anyway my thanks to the Roger's service group who solved the problem and to the 1st level phone tech lady who opened the ticket.

Next project is moving to Ignite so I'm sure I'll be back to pick at the brain-trust.

Have to go pull some Ethernet cables. I'm too cheap for Screen Beams and can't use power line adapters thanks to GFI breakers.

Thanks very much to everyone who offered advice and shared their wisdom with me.

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

I too am having the exact problem with my explorer 8300 pvr, error message channel is currently not available. I started having the same issue around the same time as you. Seems to be only the same few channels, 7 HDCTY, 4 Omni, 23 weather network, 41among others.  It is also now happening on the time shift SD channels in the 100's, which was NOT happening on the weekend.  Some of these channels magically come back for a  few hours or a day and then fade to black again.  I spoke to tech support yesterday and they tried rebooting the box from their end with no success. Was informed it must be the box on it's last legs and did not escalate my problem.   I get they will be fading out digital tv but after seeing someone else is experiencing the exact same problem, with the same channels I'm suspicious that it is not the box (wouldn't I start to experience the same problem with other channels?)  but an issue on Rogers end and they don't want to do anything about it as to force us onto ignite.  I'm also not able to access Rogers on demand, it goes to channel 100 and the promos run but can't actually access the search screen, was this happening to you as well?

 

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

FredGarvin
I plan to stick around

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you.

I never tried using the Rogers on Demand channel.

Your 8300, I believe is the same generation as my 3250HD and it was the last of mine to go wonky over the later generation boxes. It was also the first to come back to normal.

I highly doubt it is your box.  You need to keep trying the support group until you find a Level 1 tech who understands the problem. It took me three call ins.

Even a Level 2 manager (call in #2) couldn't help other than give me a good deal on switching Ignite.

I was thinking about doing in the next couple of weeks but my internet speed has gone down where I'm getting higher uploads speeds than download speeds which means I would have any TV with Ignite.

If nothing has changed at your end it has to be something in their cable or at the CATV  distribution location.

Check your signal levels on the channels you do have.  You'll have to search the forums for the how to do it. There is a link here somewhere.  If your signal levels are way down it's the incoming cable.  If they are normal like mine were it's somewhere on Roger's end.  I wish I could tell you what they did to fix my issue but all I got was a text saying the problem was fixed and the work order closed.

 

 

 

Re: NextBoxes kicked off the network

Dave1001
I've been around
Rogers aren't helping me. They just wanted me to take on ignite.
I have 3 netboxes I've got recordings on that. I can't use together with throwing them away.
All boxes stuck on 01
Can anybody help
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