@DrMike wrote:
I wanted to take a moment to thank all who responded here
(especially @-G- , @Gdkitty , @Datalink , @ColdGranite , @57 etc ) and to let you know how valuable your insights and knowledge have been, and how much your time is appreciated.
I think, based on what I have seen here, I am ready to negotiate further with Rogers (re $$) and make the leap to Ignite. But I wanted to just outline my intentions below to make sure I am really incorporating the advice I got here, and in a logical fashion.
Hi! Yes, I think that you have a good understanding of the issues and have a workable plan... and you have some additional options available to you as well if you should run into any unforeseen issues.
2. I intend to configure the XB6, via web browser, to use my EXISTING SSIDs, and existing passphrases, one at 2.4 GHz and the other on the 5 GHz band.
3. I do NOT want to enable band steering (or probably more accurately I suspect, I will want to DISABLE band steering), especially since I confirmed that some of the smart home devices I use (LIFX bulbs) will ONLY operate on the 2.4 GHz band, so I do not want to ‘break’ that connection. Ironically, I think ALL my other IoT devices (Google Hub, Google minis, Phillips Hue bulbs and bridges etc) all *will* work at 5 GHZ, but not the LIFX bulbs. So if I need the 2.4 band for those bulbs, then I need that for Google Home to turn them off and on, then I need to keep my entire home device network on 2.4 GHz I think….. SO I do not want band steering.
FYI, there is no explicit option to disable band steering on the XB6; you do this by assigning separate network names to the 2.4 and 5 Ghz bands. And, if you assign the same network name to both bands, then band steering will be enabled automatically.
4. Since I need to have my smart home on the 2.4 band to make sure all devices inter-operate, that presumably means that a) I can NEVER use the Wi-Fi Hub app, and b) I cannot use the Rogers extender pods either since they require, as I understand it, both the Wi-Fi Hub app and band steering to be enabled.
As soon as you start using the Ignite WiFi mobile app, that will put your XB6 under the control of the Ignite WiFi Hub. You will still have control over some options if you do not add Pods. However, once you add Pods, then everything goes into Auto mode; band steering gets enabled and you lose access to your channel configuration settings.
However, if you should ever need Pods, you DO have another option available to you: configure your router as a WiFi Access Point, assign different WiFi network names on your router that do not conflict with what you have configured in the Ignite WiFi Hub, and use your old router for connecting your IoT devices and for your Guest network.
5. If I find that I need more signal strength/range, Option 2 will be to put the XB6 into bridge mode and reconnect my ASUS RT-AC68u router, again keeping the same SSIDs etc as I have now. I *KNOW* from 3 different scanning apps that the signal strength and range currently, in both bands, is more than adequate throughout my house now using that Router (I get readings consistently better than -50 dBm and in most critical spots even better than -40 with this router as currently positioned and configured), so I don’t see why that would not be that case using a different modem. If I needed to add my ASUS router back into the mix, it should eliminate any need for pods and/or band steering I presume. I hope 🙂
Sounds good.
Also, if you cannot get Ignite TV working with your router, for whatever reason, another option available to you is to leave the XB6 in gateway mode but disable WiFi, and configure your router as a WiFi Access Point.
6. As long as I never download, install or use the Ignite Wi-Fi *HUB* app, my modem/router/network settings should remain under my control, correct?
Yes. (...and hopefully Rogers will not do anything to change this.)
7. Furthermore, I *CAN* download and use (if it is of any real value to me) the Rogers Ignite *TV* app, so I can program the PVR from my phone, etc, correct?
Yes, absolutely. I use the "Ignite TV" app frequently.
So that’s my plan. I hope I have it right and that I have absorbed the advice here properly 🙂
Thanks again to one and all. Much appreciated indeed!
Yes! I think you have a good plan and several options available as a fallback.
Best of luck and I hope all goes well... and we're all still here for you if you should ever need any help or want any second opinions!
Best of luck. At this point you're going into this with an amount of information that will hopefully allow you to accomplish exactly what you want to do. Too bad Rogers didn't make all of this clear from the beginning. Fwiw, this whole conversation needs to be encapsulated into one post, as in, "ok, your thinking about switching to Ignite TV and its services, here's what you need to know, including the gotcha's that Rogers doesn't spell out."
The modems that Rogers has provided, seemingly forever are Gateway modems. That is to say, they have two distinct operating modes, the first being Gateway mode which includes firewall, DHCP, wifi services, etc, etc. Essentially a modem and router all in one. Bridge mode is used to set the modem into a "modem only" operating mode, where all the modem does is act as a bridge between [the DOCSIS communication system that runs between the modem and CMTS], and the ethernet side that exists on the LAN ports. So, no firewall, DHCP, wifi services, etc, etc. You need a router to provide all of the typical router and security services to run your LAN and keep it safe from the miscreants around the globe.
Along comes the XB6 modems which upends that historical approach. The Gateway mode doesn't change much, except for the automatic controls over some of the functions. You can thank Intel and Comcast for that. As indicated in the above conversation, you can choose to disable the main wifi networks on the modem and use your router as a wifi access point, if you so choose. Bridge mode does change as the modem continues to transmit hidden Wifi networks. Hidden as in, the SSIDs are not identified. So, no matter what mode you're in, you still have wifi networks running. That's probably the only missing element from the conversation so far. So, the hidden networks are probably only transmitting the beacons, but that's just a guess as once again, Rogers has not published any info on what exactly the networks are for and why their required. So, you can work around this issue by enabling the Dynamic Frequency Selection channels in the modem and setting the modem to use one of those channels. I'd also set the channel bandwidth to a minimum and use one of the lower DFS channels to keep out of the way of any airport weather system, which share the DFS channel space. The weather radars take priority, so any modem that detects an operating weather radar has to evacuate the occupied channel. The DFS and weather radar channels can be seen in the following page:
So, when you look at the 5 Ghz DFS channels, you can see that there are several channels which can be used and hopefully avoid any weather radar conflicts.
Ok, so, there are two set top boxes, the Xi6-A and Xi6-T. The Xi6-T is DFS capable, or so the U.S. FCC cert application indicated. So, if you receive the Xi6-T version, you can set the 5 Ghz wifi channel out of the way, somewhere in the DFS channel group, leaving your router to use either the low or high 5 Ghz band channels, without any conflicts from the modem's hidden networks. Yet another little known snippet of info about the Ignite TV system.
@DrMike wrote:
This is a tangent but can you then please explain to me what exactly *IS* Gateway mode. I thought that it was a gateway specifically BECAUSE WiFi was enabled. If WiFi is disabled, why is this still a gateway? My definition/understanding is clearly not correct 🙂
"Gateway" is the technical term for the router and Internet firewall functions combined. The router part is what moves network packets between the LAN (Ethernet + WiFi) network interfaces the WAN (Internet), and the firewall enforces the security policies for the network traffic that flows through the device.
The XB6 combines the functions of a (DOCSIS) Cable Modem and Gateway (and a few other things) into one.
When Bridge Mode is enabled on the XB6, its "Gateway" functionality is disabled, WiFi is disabled, and its Ethernet ports are directly connected to the Internet. That enables your own "router" (which is really a gateway) to access the Internet directly through its WAN interface.
On the XB6, "Gateway mode" is equivalent to having "Bridge Mode" disabled. In "Gateway mode" you can also disable WiFi when you do not require it (leaving only the Ethernet LAN ports active), perhaps because you would rather use your own external Wi-Fi Access Point instead.
I wouldn't set the modem and router side by side, but, you can do exactly as you say, run both modem and wifi networks at the same time. You would have to take care of the channel separation between the two devices. 2.4 Ghz only really has channels 1, 6 and 11 for choices, in order to avoid any channel overlap. On the 5 Ghz side, you can set one device to the low channel range and the other to the high channel range. Depending on how far the connected devices are from the modem or router, you should run the modem or router at the higher 5 Ghz range where that choice is dependent on the maximum operating range that any particular connected device will be used when compared to the location of the modem or router. Just depends on which device (modem or router) that any particular device is connected to. Hopefully you can see what I'm getting at here.
I'm currently running an 86U for a router with the CODA-4582 modem in Bridge mode. The router is about 10 feet from the modem, which ensures that there won't be any EMI affects on the modem from the routers wifi transmissions. Keep in mind, if I remember correctly, the 68U and the 86U both have power level controls in the Professional section of the wifi settings. So, if you can't park the router at some respectable distance from the modem, you can turn the power levels down for the router's wifi networks if necessary.
So, you can supplement the modem's wifi to run another network by using the router, including a guest network, or you can turn off the modem's wifi and use the router's wifi instead. That's your choice to make. When you have an XB6 modem in your home, take a walkabout, around the home and collect some receive power stats at some locations so that you can compare them to the same location with the previous 68U router power levels. Also run speed tests to see what the results are. The two data sets should give you a good before "install" and after "install" comparison. Hopefully the numbers will speak for themselves. If you have a windows laptop with Winfi lite installed, you can easily collect the RSSI data at various points around the home.
Edit: corrected the first paragraph.
@DrMike wrote:
@-G- said:Also, if you cannot get Ignite TV working with your router, for whatever reason, another option available to you is to leave the XB6 in gateway mode but disable WiFi, and configure your router as a WiFi Access Point.Every time I think I have asked my last question, another one (dumb or otherwise 😏) pops into my head...
So let me learn a bit about Access Points. As I understand, the main reason for configuring a router as an AP is to extend the signal range of the system, but to do so, the AP must be directly connected (ethernet) to the originating modem/router since connecting it via WiFi is circular and pointless, i.e., defeats the purpose.
A "Wi-Fi Access Point" is the technical name for a "thing" that provides WiFi connectivity for your devices. It could be the WiFi interfaces on your ASUS router, on the XB6, or even a Pod.
But, is there any technical reason I could not set up my router in AP mode right next to, and physically connected to the XB6 (i.e., on my desk where it is now). I realize this would afford me zero gain in terms of extending my signal etc. But I assume it would allow me to use a different SSID than on the XB6 to connect to my IoT devices and to use my router's 'guest mode' as well. (both of which you mentioned in an earlier post). That might seem a waste to some, but just trying to understand the possible configurations.
You can have two Access Points situated in close proximity to one another, and yes, that would enable you to "use a different SSID than on the XB6 to connect to my IoT devices and to use my router's 'guest mode' as well." You just need to ensure that they are not sharing the same network names or the same WiFi channels. I would also try to keep the APs 10 feet (3 m) apart from one another, if possible.
I think you may have mentioned this previously, so sorry if you already answered, but again *IF* I was to relent and in fact use the Rogers WiFi HUB app and let it control the XB6 completely etc, could I still use my ASUS router as an AP sitting right next to it and gaining me more usable SSIDs and access to the router's guest network capability? Or will this all conflict hopelessly with one another?
Yes, that should work fine. Since the XB6 and Pods will auto-select their WiFi channels when the WiFi Hub is in control, you will want to manually assign the WiFi channels on your ASUS router. Also, since you would be using your router (in this case) as the connection point for your 2.4 Ghz devices, I would use your WiFi scanner to identify the best 2.4 GHz channel and lock that channel into your router. (Ideally, I would use channel 1, 6, or 11 to avoid channel overlap and hope that the XB6 picks a sensible alternative. On the 5 GHz band, I would use either a low channel number, which uses a lower power level, or a DFS channel if that is available.) The Rogers equipment will then have to find the next best channels available.
If everything is configured correctly, they should not conflict with each other.
Also, to clarify one more thing... When I said "put your router into 'AP mode'" or to "configure it as an Access Point", what this means is that you will effectively be putting your own router into "bridge mode". You will be disabling the internal router and firewall functions will only have the WiFi functionality enabled.
Need to be careful with the language here:
"Also, to clarify one more thing... When I said "put your router into 'AP mode'" or to "configure it as an Access Point", what this means is that you will effectively be putting your own router into "bridge mode". You will be disabling the internal router and firewall functions will only have the WiFi functionality enabled."
Asus routers have the following operating modes available:
Wireless router mode / AiMesh Router mode (Default)
Access Point(AP) mode / AiMesh Router in AP mode
Repeater mode
Media Bridge
AiMesh Node
The Access point mode will do as you indicated, which is to disable the firewall and DHCP server. The router is connected to the modem thru the router WAN port. The LAN ports will remain active. This is not a "Bridge mode" in the typical use of the term when it comes to Asus routers.
The Media Bridge mode allows the router to operate as a wifi bridge between the router and another main router or modem. The intent here is to connect devices to the Media Bridge mode router via its ethernet ports. So, if you had a number of ethernet devices at some remote location, where there isn't any ethernet cable or RG-6 cable for MoCA adapters, the Media Bridge mode router can provide intranet/internet access via wifi link back to the main modem or router. All of the remote location ethernet devices are connected to the Media Bridge mode router thru its LAN ports. Its entirely possible and probable that the firewall and DHCP server are disabled, which would make sense for this particular operations mode.
@Datalink Thank you for clarifying the ASUS configuration options!
...and AARRRGH!!! It makes it impossible to provide simple explanations when every bleepin' manufacturer uses different terms/configuration options for the same thing. FYI, Linksys uses the term "bridge mode" when you want to turn their gear into an Access Point; TP-Link uses "AP Mode"; and not all routers support mesh functionality, but those that do have additional options. And some older Wi-Fi routers don't even have an "AP Mode" option, but you can accomplish the same thing through (VERY) careful configuration.
@DrMike wrote:
Ok, so I made the commitment and ordered the upgrade 🙂 I chose to have the equipment couriered to me and I will self install. I wanted to ensure that I followed the advice of several of the experts here (for example @-G- and @Datalink and others), who said I should manually configure the XB6 in admin mode and NOT use the WiFi hub app.
I just performed an Ignite TV + Internet installation for a family member earlier this week. I did not use the Ignite WiFi Hub app. I connected the modem, powered it up, and watched the status LED blink and change colours as the XB6 booted up... until it turned solid white, indicating that all was well... then started blinking, indicating that it was ready for WiFi setup.
The home had some IoT devices that do not play nicely with band steering, so I could not install Pods, and I configured separate network names for the 2.4 and 5 GHz networks. I left WiFi channel selection set to Auto. The XB6 picked sensible channels. FYI, it selected channel 149 on the 5 GHz band.
I got a surprise a few days later. We wanted to change one of the WiFi network names but the change didn't take. It looks like the Ignite WiFi Hub got enabled in the back end and "took over" the XB6, even through we took great care to (hopefully) keep the Hub from getting enabled. Apparently having the WiFi Hub enabled does not preclude you from disabling band steering, so long as you do not have Pods installed. I won't be able to troubleshoot this further (or confirm what settings can/cannot be changed through the Hub) until the weekend. Apart from this little surprise, everything is working well.
However, the agent on the phone who did the account side of the migration order said something that is making me wonder. She said that the new Ignite modem (XB6) will not just work out of the box but that there was some sort of link I had to click to "accept" the modem (i.e. activate it from the sound of it). I am wondering therefore if the "link" I need to access to make the migration happen is actually the very WiFi hub app I want to avoid?
Your situation is different in that you already have Rogers Internet so, at some point, your current modem will need to be deactivated so that the Ignite XB6 gateway can be activated. I don't know what is required to do this. Perhaps the Rogers tech, who will be dropping off your new equipment, can process the switchover.
All that I can confirm is that for a "new customer" install, the Ignite WiFi app is not required to activate the modem... and that the Ignite WiFi Hub may also end up getting enabled anyway.
Also: When the first set-top box comes online, it will prompt you to accept Terms of Service for the PVR and other cloud services. That's the only thing that we were ever asked to "accept" during the installation process.
As for the inconsistencies in the responses that you received from the various Rogers agents, this could be reflective of what they learned in training at the time that they came onboard. The agents' responses may have also been partly based on their own personal installation experiences, which also could have been different from what a new customer would see today.
I think what it is.. is that things like the WIFI, etc all those things are not set up on the modem out of the box.
Assuming its provisioned, it should connect, etc.. but may not have any other settings set up.
I would think you would then likely have to connect a WIRED PC to the modem, and connect to then 10.0.0.1, and go in and set everything up that way.
@Gdkitty wrote:
I think what it is.. is that things like the WIFI, etc all those things are not set up on the modem out of the box.
Assuming its provisioned, it should connect, etc.. but may not have any other settings set up.
I would think you would then likely have to connect a WIRED PC to the modem, and connect to then 10.0.0.1, and go in and set everything up that way.
When a brand new XB6 gets connected and powered up, you will see the status light on top blink and change colours as it boots up and registers. You will then finally see a flashing white LED, indicating that the XB6 is ready for WiFi setup. I used an Ethernet-connected computer to perform the initial setup. You can also connect using the default WiFi network name/passphrase that is printed on the bottom of the XB6 gateway.
Ah, OK. Been a while since I had to do it.. wasnt sure 🙂
The wifi app, probably initially connects with the defaults, and then does change over to their new settings for the user.
But as we know, then changes and locks down some stuff.
At least one good thing to know, for someone who DOES use the app.
IF the modem say dies, since the settings are sort of saved on the rogers side, if you get a new modem when you set it up will pull over your old settings
(Except for the port forwarding, as far as I have found so far)
@Gdkitty wrote:
Ah, OK. Been a while since I had to do it.. wasnt sure 🙂
Yeah, me neither. I haven't even had to factory-reset my XB6 in the past year but got a refresher on doing new installs earlier this week.
The wifi app, probably initially connects with the defaults, and then does change over to their new settings for the user.
But as we know, then changes and locks down some stuff.
The QR code on the bottom of the XB6 encodes the model number, serial number and modem's MAC addresses. What the mobile app and back-end systems do exactly with that info, for new or for existing customers, only Rogers knows. Presumably it tells Rogers that you have your new modem and confirms that you have the one that they had set up for you in their systems... and for existing customers, to deactivate your old modem and activate the new one.
For a new customer, if the new modem is active on the account, the XB6 will initialize and its status LED will turn white and start flashing.
At least one good thing to know, for someone who DOES use the app.
IF the modem say dies, since the settings are sort of saved on the rogers side, if you get a new modem when you set it up will pull over your old settings
(Except for the port forwarding, as far as I have found so far)
I didn't realize that. That's kinda cool.
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