Here's some really cool news: Comcast has finally unveiled its new DOCSIS 4.0 / Wi-Fi 7 gateway -- the XB10.
This new gateway is based on Broadcom's new DOCSIS 4.0 chipset, and will support both Full Duplex DOCSIS (aka FDX, which uses frequencies up to 1.2 GHz -- what Comcast is now starting to roll out (and what Rogers presumably will too)) and Extended Spectrum DOCSIS (ESD), which can use frequencies up to 1.8 GHz but allocates separate bands for Upstream and Downstream channels.
Comcast also unveiled a new Wi-Fi 7 Router, the XER10, which appears to be purpose-built for FTTH installations. (An XB10 without the cable modem??) I have not been able to track down any detailed specs yet but, like other Wi-Fi 7 routers on the market, I would presume that this device will have at least two 10 Gigabit Ethernet ports. If you look close, you will also see that this router has a telephone jack for Home Phone.
Rogers currently provides (XGS-PON) FTTH customers with an XB7 or XB8 gateway, and uses the (one and only) 2.5 GigE port as a WAN connection to an external ONT. This leaves customers with only Gigabit Ethernet and Wi-Fi connectivity for their devices, making impossible for them to use their multi-gig service to its full potential. It looks like the XER10 router is just what Rogers needs.
I will post more information as it becomes available.
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Hello @-G-,
Thank you for getting this thread started. A lot of great features as you have highlighted in your post. Once we have more details than we will be able to update the community on the product.
RogersJermaine
While neither the XB10 nor XER10 were specifically mentioned, Rogers, today, announced a 10-year agreement with Comcast to "bring the latest award-winning Xfinity products and technology to Canadians across the country.", including Comcast'a 10G Internet product and technology portfolio.
Rogers to Bring World-Class Comcast and Xfinity Products to Canada
Yesterday, I called Rogers to see about getting an XB10. Apparently, it's not available, at least not in my area.
@JKnott wrote:
Yesterday, I called Rogers to see about getting an XB10. Apparently, it's not available, at least not in my area.
I have not seen any XB10 news since whatever we saw got unveiled back in February. No announcements of a release date from Comcast or any reports of early deployments to customers. The only thing we have been told is that it will be coming in the second half of 2024 and will be based on Broadcom silicon... but no word on who the manufacturer is/will be. If the XB10 or XER10 units have been submitted to the FCC for testing, the test reports are still under embargo.
Also nothing in the Comcast DOCSIS 4.0 thread on DSLReports. From what I have heard, Comcast's testers have been using an unbranded DOCSIS 4.0 modem and an (Ethernet WAN-connected) XB8 Gateway.
Apparently, Rogers is conducting limited DOCSIS 4.0 tests in Calgary but I do not know whose hardware they are using in their nodes or anything about the CPE gear in testers' homes.
@Mayoo wrote:
When can we order this modem ? i always used them in Bridge mode and currently i have 2.5Gbps with no fibe. Will this modem provide any difference in quality ?
Where are you located? Do you actually have an Ignite/Xfinity 2.5 Gigabit Internet service or is this just what you see on speed tests?
I think it is going to be a while before see the XB10 Gateway. What we saw unveiled back in February was just a mock-up. An early version of the XB10, that only supports DOCSIS 4.0 FDX, is only just now slowing being released to some Comcast customers, replacing the XB8 / XD4 modem combo that had been used in early testing. A new version of the XB10 (the XB10u?), based on Broadcom's new unified FDX/ESD D4.0 chipset, is apparently still in development. Also, Broadcom's unified D4.0 silicon is not available in quantity yet, and until it is, early production runs of the XB10u will be relegated to certification, lab testing, and VERY limited trials.
As for when Rogers customers might see DOCSIS 4.0, who knows. A year or so ago, both Rogers and Shaw signalled that they were going to go the ESD route. A month ago, there were press releases during SCTE TechExpo 24 that Rogers was going to adopt Comcast's network architecture. Rogers has publicly said that they are testing DOCSIS 4.0 modems in Calgary and attaining 4Gbps Downstream and 1 Gbps upstream -- but that is still a valid DOCSIS 3.1 configuration and likely using dedicated upstream and downstream spectrum, not FDX. Apparently, when asked, Rogers now would not confirm whether they will be going the FDX or ESD route for their DOCSIS 4.0 rollout.
I also don't know what Rogers will do with all the Casa DAA / R-PHY nodes out there in Ontario. The vendor went bankrupt back in April, and despite Casa's optimistic claims, I don't think that the FPGA's in the DA2200 can be reprogrammed to provide a proper working DOCSIS 4.0 implementation of any flavour.
You also asked whether the XB10 will provide any difference in quality. Good question. I was one of the early XB8 testers, and even though it had been available to Comcast customers for several months before we got it, the firmware was not stable and the Wi-Fi drivers were in very rough shape. We finally got good, solid firmware in January, 2023, and by that time, the XB8 had been out in the field in Comcastland for a year.
Just to add to my previous post, many Fibre-to-the-Home (FTTH) customers (who are not running on their own network gear) will definitely want to replace their XB8 gateways with the XER10 router. However, I have not heard ANY news about this device. Nothing!
FYI, Comcast now says that the XB10 is coming in 2025.
Our Most Powerful Gateway Delivers Multi-Gig Symmetrical Speeds
The XB10 gateway, coming in 2025, will be Comcast’s fastest and most powerful device yet – supporting WiFi 7 and DOCSIS 4.0 – and will deliver multi-gigabit symmetrical speeds over WiFi, with the unprecedented capacity to connect to 300 devices simultaneously. The XB10 also includes AI technology that will help ensure a consistent experience.
On Wednesday, Rogers had 4 trucks at my condo and I had some planned interruptions to my cable service, as they were upgrading the equipment in the condo utility room. I suspect (hope?) this has something to do with the DOCSIS 4.0 rollout.
Some background: for years, pretty much all the DOCSIS infrastructure was concentrated in the headend. Neighbourhoods had fibre nodes, that connected to the headend infrastructure over an analog fibre network and provided the signal that goes out over the neighbourhood coax plant to homes. Depending on how far away the homes are from the node, one or more amplifiers may be required to boost the signal, in both the upstream and downstream directions. Upstream traffic was constrained to the 5–42 MHz frequency range; spectrum above that could be used for downstream traffic, usually above108 MHz to avoid interference with FM radio.
The problem with this approach is that it is very inflexible. It's analog nature required constant maintenance to keep signal levels within acceptable norms. Upstream bandwidth is constrained, making it impossible to offer speeds above 100 Mbps. The legacy equipment is also very expensive... to purchase, to operate and to maintain.
There are newer, better ways of doing things. A Distributed Access Architecture allows separation of the functions that used to be concentrated in the headend. With Remote PHY, the part of the CMTS that sends the RF signals to the modem can get pushed out to the edge of the network, in the neighbourhoods. The R-PHY nodes connect to the headend over a digital fibre network. The R-PHY devices can be located in existing nodes, which may still require amplification to communicate with homes. They may even be pushed closer to the homes, to the point that amplifiers can be eliminated. (Another benefit is that modems get a much better, cleaner and more stable signal, with consistent power levels and much higher SNR.) The remaining functionality of the CMTS can be implemented in software, a Virtual CMTS (vCMTS), typically running centrally on common large-scale servers. This eliminates dedicated, inflexible, legacy hardware, that may be approaching end-of-life.
When upgrading infrastructure to DAA, it's also a good time to add upstream capacity by allocating more spectrum for upstream traffic. This requires changing the upstream/downstream split point. With mid-split, frequencies up to 85 MHz are allocated to upstream traffic. (With mid-split, you still avoid the 87.5 - 108.0 MHz range used by FM radio.) With high-split, frequencies up to 204 MHz are used for upstream.
Another thing that needs to be done is to clean up the cable plant and upgrade active and passive components between the RPD (R-PHY device) and cable modem. At the very least, components will need to be upgraded to support spectrum up to 1.2 GHz, possibly 1.8 GHz, eventually 3 GHz.
For all of the above, we are still talking about DOCSIS 3.1.
For the last several years, Comcast has been the leading the development of the vCMTS and DAA/R-PHY deployments.
They are also approximately halfway through upgrading their customers' neighbourhoods to mid-split, and aim to complete the mid-split upgrade by the end of 2025.
Only then can they consider upgrading neighbourhoods to DOCSIS 4.0.
Comcast's DOCSIS 4.0 deployment requires upgrading their DOCSIS 3.1 R-PHY nodes. The new infrastructure is intelligent, allows for proactive management, and has embedded AI capabilities.
Comcast is also aiming to standardize their virtualized infrastructure and implement a content distribution network out to the edge: https://corporate.comcast.com/press/releases/comcast-edge-compute-enhance-streaming-experience-stand...
@asturias7 wrote:
This was released back on Sep 24. 2024...
*Of note: “With Comcast’s network design and expertise as its guide, Rogers will be positioned to quickly upgrade its footprint and leverage the incredible benefits of the built-in AI, cloud and edge compute. It gives Rogers a clear path to roll out next-generation DOCSIS 4.0 Unified technology, to begin offering symmetrical multi-gig speeds nationwide, and industry-leading reliability, performance and security.”
Okay, so that makes it seem like Rogers is poised and ready to roll out DOCSIS 4.0... but they are not. Not yet.
Two years ago, Rogers started rolling out DAA / R-PHY nodes and a virtual CCAP architecture. The problem is that Casa Systems went bankrupt back in April, 2024, and their cable infrastructure division got acquired by CommScope, which are experiencing their own financial difficulties. Although Casa made a lot of promises about the DA2200's upgradability, I highly doubt that it can be upgraded to support any flavour of DOCSIS 4.0. It certainly does not support any of the intelligent capabilities that are present in Comcast's nodes, which are manufactured by Harmonic. I don't know whether CommScope is offering Rogers any kind of upgrade path.
Before Rogers can roll out DOCSIS 4.0, at the moment, they need to commit to deploying either DOCSIS 4.0 FDX (Full Duplex) or DOCSIS 4.0 ESD (Extended Spectrum). They are two very different architectures:
D4.0 ESD allocates independent upstream and downstream ESD supports traditional amplifies and uses diplex filters with dynamic split points, but also uses spectrum up to 1.8 GHz, and upstream traffic occupies spectrum up to 684 MHz.
Comcast uses D4.0 FDX. Their cable plant is set up for mid-split. It also uses a chunk of spectrum between 108 and 684 MHz for both upstream AND downstream DOCSIS 4.0 traffic. What is also unique is that the allocation of upstream and downstream bandwidth in the FDX block can be adjusted dynamically -- but this does not allow for the use of conventional amplifiers. There are also a slew of other technical issues that must be dealt with (no actives, no diplex filters, you need to handle signal reflection and echo cancellation differently, etc. etc.) and it was deemed by many operators to be too complex. However, Comcast has been able to work through these issues, and even partnered with CommScope to develop D4.0 FDX intelligent amplifiers, and up to 6 amplifiers in a cascade can communicate with one another and the FDX node to selectively adjust the upstream and downstream split point when it boosts signals in the upstream and downstream direction.
So far, Rogers has only stated that it has tested DOCSIS 4.0 modems, and achieved speeds of 1 Gbps upstream, 4Gbps downstream. They are still likely using DOCSIS 3.1 high-split, and using the DOCSIS 4 (ESD?) modem for its higher port speed.
*Of note: “With Comcast’s network design and expertise as its guide, Rogers will be positioned to quickly upgrade its footprint and leverage the incredible benefits of the built-in AI, cloud and edge compute. It gives Rogers a clear path to roll out next-generation DOCSIS 4.0 Unified technology, to begin offering symmetrical multi-gig speeds nationwide, and industry-leading reliability, performance and security.”
So, yeah, Rogers may be "positioned to quickly upgrade its footprint and leverage the incredible benefits of the built-in AI", doing this means upgrading/replacing their DAA/R-PHY gear. Once they decide whether they go FDX or ESD, they then will need to make additional neighbourhood upgrades.
The "built-in AI" comes from using Broadcom's D4.0 chips... which, so far, only supports FDX. Unified chipsets, that support both FDX and ESD, are on the way but will take time to make their way into new products, and even more time before those products can be shipped in quantity. They could also just follow Comcast's lead and roll out
A faster path to DOCSIS 4.0 testing is to implement the same technologies that Comcast has deployed. However, that probably will not go over well with those inside Rogers who strongly prefer ESD over FDX, and might also strain relationships with their existing vendors. Writing off infrastructure, that cannot be upgraded and that has been in production for less than two years, will also be a very hard pill for Rogers bean counters to swallow.
Me? I wouldn't bother. Rogers would have been far better off had they started rolling out Fibre-to-the-Home rather than wasting money on DAA/R-PHY upgrades with a problematic vendor.
@JKnott wrote:
On Wednesday, Rogers had 4 trucks at my condo and I had some planned interruptions to my cable service, as they were upgrading the equipment in the condo utility room. I suspect (hope?) this has something to do with the DOCSIS 4.0 rollout.
It would be hard to tell whether they upgraded a node or R-PHY gear. Do you see any difference in your modem's signal levels or any changes to how they allocated spectrum?
You also run either pfSense or OPNsense router/firewall, correct? If you look the MAC address for your firewall's default gateway (via the ARP table or similar means), is it a Casa OUI or some other vendor?
Another telltale sign that Rogers is planning a DOCSIS 4.0 rollout, of any flavour, is that they would (almost certainly) be vacating spectrum below 684 MHz. If you still see downstream QAM or OFDM channels in that space, they won't be deploying D4.0 FDX, and Comcast does not yet have any gateways that support ESD.
"spectrum above that could be used for downstream traffic, usually above108 MHz to avoid interference with FM radio."
I don't know about now, but back in the analog days, upstream started at 54 MHz, which was TV channel 2 (54 - 60 MHz). It went all the way up, so you could directly tune the TV and even FM stations with ordinary broadcast receivers. I don't know if anything between 42 & 54 MHz was used, but interference with other services was a constant concern, as anything that wasn't on a broadcast frequency could interfere with those other services.
"It would be hard to tell whether they upgraded a node or R-PHY gear. Do you see any difference in your modem's signal levels or any changes to how they allocated spectrum?"
No, but I've never looked.
"You also run either pfSense or OPNsense router/firewall, correct? If you look the MAC address for your firewall's default gateway (via the ARP table or similar means), is it a Casa OUI or some other vendor?"
pfSense. I had seen Casa in the past, but now it's AxyomCore. I use Wireshark to read the frames directly.
"Another telltale sign that Rogers is planning a DOCSIS 4.0 rollout, of any flavour, is that they would (almost certainly) be vacating spectrum below 684 MHz."
I don't have any way to see that, at least not that I'm aware of.
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