Why do I criticize Rogers, while remaining loyal?

[BS]

I was realizing that people may notice that I often have "constructive criticism" sometime laced with frustration, yet I remain loyal and stay with them for decades now.

The reason lies in the concept of quality improvement and quality assurance - I give compliments to the company when deserved too, but I worked for decades in quality assurance (making sure you live up to what you offer), and quality improvement (always looking at how to improve the experience), both from a health care perspective and from ISO standards.

So I was taught that we all have responsibility to communicate places where quality is not being assured or could use improvement and that companies who are committed to the concepts (customer experience is not necessarily the same - it is more about having people feel good when walking away that they got served well and as desired - not necessarily quality based - although similiar).

So this is the reason when I see an area like a bug in a section of Anyplace TV or the forum login, I will try to analyze what is going on, gather information, communicate and make suggestions on how I believe it can be improved, (Quality improvement), or allow us to log in (Quality assurance).

Now recently I had a discussion with a concern to management and listened to their concern that social media and the forum is not useful to them because it is just a lot of ranting.

Ranting, I see as a portion of the customer experience - sometimes we feel that we could have been treated better and when people come here, the moderators do a good job privately of trying to work things out, you can contact a CSR via the many channels of social media chat and phone, and if still not satisfied you can begin the escalation process with a concern to management.

But sometimes, the rant is just a way of venting your experience (you want to be heard), you can live with the outcome, you just need to vent, and I see all the communication channels as a way to facilitate allowing people to get it off their chest and move on.

So, as customers we are part of the process of advising and advocating for a quality end to end customer experience - not the difference between that and satisfaction - you can have a good end to end experience and not be satisfied because it was not what you hoped for; and quality assurance and quality improvement and constructive criticism.

As a final example, the forum login issue started as a bug that arose and impacts quality assurance - you can't have quality access to the forum if you can't log in.

The length of time of identification, and response and limited communication impact end to end customer experience - as you saw, my own frustration grew, as did others.

The provisions of suggestions, ad-hoc testing by us the users and feedback and the direct request for information through the moderators from the responsible programming IT team is quality improvement.

Ranting and venting of frustration is a way for us to live through it, and the people who work with the issue to resolve it need to learn to recognize that ranting is legitimate, to avoid becoming defensive when we challenge what they are or are not doing, and work closely with reading the material, understanding the problem and communicating with us in order to proceed with a thorough problem solving process leading to resolution, return to quality assurance through quality improvement (understanding what caused it and preventing it is quality assurance) and communication and listening and respecting the views of the customer is part of the end to end customer experience.

I am just trying to be part of the solution by providing insights from my past knowledge, my own ad hoc testing and virtuatl psuedo coding and problem solving, researching and listening to others as well as to communicate to others effective ways to communicate their concerns to promote improvement in getting their soloution, knowledge of the existing policies and procedures for communication, knowledge of CRTC rules and regulations, clarification of terms of service and providing insights in how to fully understand your services to avoid errors in what you get or are charged.

And validation to all that ranting is ok (even I have to be reminded of that sometimes), and if it calms you, go for it, and if you have suggestions after the rant, go for that too.

Here is to a productive forum that promotes those four concepts of customer experience end to end, customer satisfaction, quality improvement and quality assurance.

Bruce

[arnym21]

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@BS wrote:

 I am just trying to be part of the solution by providing insights from my past knowledge, my own ad hoc testing and virtual pseudo coding and problem solving, researching and listening to others as well as to communicate to others effective ways to communicate their concerns to promote improvement in getting their solution, knowledge of the existing policies and procedures for communication, knowledge of CRTC rules and regulations, clarification of terms of service and providing insights in how to fully understand your services to avoid errors in what you get or are charged.

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This presumes people you appeal to are genuinely interested to resolve every issue raised by forum members. Are you certain its always the case? For example, spamming forum members with Post Edit notifications - hundreds a day - allows to easily raise traffic to the portal, which carries financial benefits and bonuses. Because these notices don't carry any useful payload, they just prompt you to login to the forum again and again. They even marked the Notifications thread as "Solved" contrary to its OP to conceal the problem.  This is despite that particular thread keeps drawing more readers than most other threads in the Suggestions section!

Just an example of your "good intentions" interfering with real money people earn by abusing you and me as Rogers subscribers and forum participants.  Hence the trend to suppress valid critique you seems to be frustrated with.

[57]

I have seen many instances when Rogers fixes an issue that I brought forward here.  Certainly it doesn't happen all the time, however, if it's an "easy/quick" fix and it affects a lot of people, Rogers is pretty good about making those fixes.  They even monitor other forums and sometimes make fixes raised there.

If, on the other hand, the issue is complex, or it only affects a very few people, or it requires assistance from outside Rogers, as is the case sometimes for software/firmware that is not 100% developed by Rogers, the issue may take a long time to be fixed, or perhaps never.

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@arnym21 wrote:

...For example, spamming forum members with Post Edit notifications - hundreds a day - allows to easily raise traffic to the portal, which carries financial benefits and bonuses. 

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In this instance, at least you have an option or a workaround. You can turn off notifications if you don't like them (similar to unsubscribe for other websites). You can put a rule in your e-mail client to move those notifications to a special folder (or junk).  You mention (elsewhere) that this is spam and contravenes spam laws. I don't believe that's the case here because it's quite easy to turn off notifications if you don't like the way they are handled.  We have also been informed that Rogers is aware of the issue and that they are looking into it.  As I mentioned above, when/whether this gets resolved will depend on complexity and number of people affected.   I can sense your frustration and hope that the issue is resolved to your satisfaction soon, but if it makes your blood boil in the meantime, turn off notifications, or modify them so you get many fewer.

Some issues we raise don't allow for such easy workarounds or options. We have to "live with" them and can only continue to mention them at appropriate intervals.  Or we can escalate the issue elsewhere or by different means.

It irks me (and many others) that simple tasks like logging into a forum are sometimes made so difficult by what is supposed to be a "communication company."  That is inexcusable.  I never have those kinds of issues on other websites/companies I visit and I shouldn't have them here.

It also really bothers me when unilateral decisions are made, like removing "Manage PVR" functionality, or mandating a certain browser, when there is existing software/firmware that works.  That is just plain wrong and shows a complete disregard for customers.  It gets worse by having a "coming soon" sign up, giving false hope.  It would be better to mandate the browser if it's so difficult to get other browsers up and running in a timely manner.

As is the case with @BS, I will continue to post here when issues come up. I will attempt to remain courteous and raise new (and old) issues as I feel appropriate.  I also continue to be a Rogers customer because I've seen what the competition does.  That doesn't excuse Rogers, but it makes it more difficult for me to justify leaving.

I will also continue to attempt to help others in the hopes there is reciprocity when I have an issue.

[arnym21]

@57 wrote:

You can turn off notifications if you don't like them (similar to unsubscribe for other websites). You can put a rule in your e-mail client to move those notifications to a special folder (or junk).  You mention (elsewhere) that this is spam and contravenes spam laws. I don't believe that's the case here because it's quite easy to turn off notifications if you don't like the way they are handled. 

I already mentioned earlier with regards to your comments, this forum software assigns badges like "Senior Advisor" based on number of posts, not even accounting for user feedback on these posts, and the actual subject knowledge or lack of thereof revealed by these posts. Yet you keep inserting your posts after mine each and every time, attempting to "answer" something I almost never asked particularly you about, but replied to another individual. I don't think this behavior is "courteous" as you put it. In fact, you're repeatedly stalking other forum members by that. 

As to your comments, people register with this forum to get involved and keep informed about the topics they are interested in, which does NOT mean they can be bombarded with endless spam without consequences. Sorry pal, I'm not going to ask your permission on that, to say the least. The fact such emails can be filtered by an email client doesn't change the spamming nature of these emails, as stated by law. Your comment just confirms my observation, the forum badges do not reflect actual level of expertise in anything.

[RogersDarrell]

@arnym21

Please be advised that no where in the Rogers Community Forums does it state that Badges or Ranks (with the exception of those awarded, applied and stated by Rogers) indicate or inference a level of expertise or knowledge in any subject.

What you're referring to is called 'Gamification". Gamification is the application of typical elements of game playing or awards to areas of activity, typically as an online marketing technique to encourage engagement with a product or service. In this case, the Rogers Community Forums.

RogersDarrell

[arnym21]

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@RogersDarrell wrote:

What you're referring to is called 'Gamification".

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Thanks for your clarification. I suspected something along these lines, but... some forum newbies might be misled by these badges... unless they like to play games themselves. 

[barndoor]

I think that to what extent you help  or criticize  Rogers   while remaining a customer will depend  on a whole lot of personal  tolerances and circumstances . 

Some feel like they are helping and may not have but one other competitor to switch to  so basically have little choice . Others may have a lot of choices  to switch to for the services that they are looking for  and like myself have a very low tolerance  for repeated issues   that cause lost  time and annoyance.  

A good thing that this is brought up though  because i know I tend to forget that  other people have little choice about their service provider and therefore must stick it out here and try to do what they can to improve their  situation .   

As far as the "gamification " discussion goes .... I think that reference looses a lot of it's credibility when you use a descriptive badge like  ''senior advisor "  which actually has a connotation  in language  of being someone  who should be knowledgeable .   If you used badges like .....baby bear....teeny bear... mama bear .... papa bear or some such tiering  it would  seem more like gamification  would it not ?

[arnym21]

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@barndoor wrote:

If you used badges like .....baby bear....teeny bear... mama bear .... papa bear or some such tiering  it would  seem more like gamification would it not ?

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Right on the money. But probably would discourage some narcissistic folks from contributing. I'd probably go by granny bear then. 

I'd rename this thread to "Why do I keep contributing to Rogers success?", because that's what people are in fact doing when pointing to forum bugs and missing features, or gaps in service. I also just like you have plenty of competitive choices with really good offers. Nonetheless, I like stability of Rogers service, and as a customer want to bring their forum service to a higher level. People sometimes forget, when the bar is not constantly set higher, any company starts loosing pretty fast customers and money.

[BS]

I haven't popped into this orignal thread on the lounge that I put forward.

My views haven't changed much since I first wrote it, but I did enjoy the last post from @barndoor and @arnym21

I still stay loyal, because I have had a long history of quality service, but I criticize because I try to keep it to constructive criticism as best I can, because I do want them to continue as a quality company, and to keep customers in their focus and respect our needs and what we can afford, while continuing to be a corporation responsible to its shareholders.

But I have been realizing that up until the 1990's, Rogers was one thing for me - a more reliable way of receiving services from my local over the air broadcasters, and although originally there had been differing types of cable boxes available, by the 1990's, we could all use a remote with a cable tuner in our TV.  So my service was really very basic.

The first time I added to the service was a free offer for a decoded network, which at the end of the offer, I cancelled.

This was also the time where Rogers got themselves into hot water over negative billing - those free offers, that suddenly we were billed for if we forgot to cancel, and how many of us forgot - me included.

Then in the 1900's, I began to introduce Internet, dial up to local providers, some even free, access to dial up to my university library services and so forth, next was Look communications dial up, and late 1990's Rogers introduced their first broadband into Whitby - it was nice with a number of neat things, like personal web sites - it Rogers@Home, and our Rogers email accounts came into place - within a couple of years, in my area, they did a major upgrade to the network, that completely failed and I left a Rogers service for the first time because they couldn't even provide it - I recall they lost around 60% customer base during that period in the Toronto area - we moved to Bell DSL, which at the time, the speeds were comparable - it was the new network that failed on implementation that would have been faster.  That was the first time I ever was frustrated with Rogers, and I worked hard with them, but ultimately walked, because they couldn't provide the Internet service, and I kept my Bell phone, with long distance companies other than them, long distance cards, controlling long distance by choosing appropriate rate hours on weekends and evenings, as we had done for decades.  As Bell's prices increased in long distance, I moved more and more to the alternative providers.

When we moved in 2000's, we went to Rogers cable again, very basic plans again, and gradually through special loyalty offers and grandfathering we ended up on VIP and bundled plans, which were financially viable, but over the last few years, we have downgraded services to reflect what we can afford and what we really use.

We moved to Rogers Home Phone when it came out because of a major disagreement on pricing and miscommunications so we wanted to change, but also because of the better choice bundles, and an ongoing effort of the company to support me with loyalty offers and financial incentives for having services with them.

I do not find this is true anymore for me, as my life situation has changed - I was a 30-50 year old during the 80's to 2000's, with two people working full time jobs, good salaries, and two children at home, now adults.

We also added cell phones in during that period of 2000's for keeping contact during travel and other reasons, but we also didn't start with bell - we had pay as you go options from various sources, and eventually moved to the family plan because we could call long distance unlimited to our children, now in university, and our plans didn't even cost us more than 80.00 for 4 people.  We have never hit local limit caps on local time, were always careful with long distance calling times, and our children had those friends with long distance, text them and call them, and if our daughters happened to be in a long distance area, they said they had to call at a cheaper time. We have always been frugal.

Now I am in my 60's, on fixed income, and my wife no longer has a reliable income anymore, so all those services we added on with each loyalty offer were fine, but over the last few years, we have moved to more for less in terms of cost and service mixes.

I have been on the forums for about 5 years now, actively, starting with Rogers One Number and web site certificate issues, and Navigatr, but have moved to my ongoing efforts to find the services that I would like to have, and then narrow them down to what I really need, and then find a model from service providers that first address those needs and are affordable.

I have a lot of very tough decision in front of us as a family, that go way beyond whether I have a fast Internet connection, or some channel, I may find enjoyment with - I have medications to pay for, house repairs, car repairs, and can I even afford to live in my original home town of Whitby anymore, which in a way means that options of TV and Internet and cell will be limited to what is available - some of the areas we have looked at, Rogers doesn't service via cable, so also home phone, and has spotty cell phone, so Rogers may not even be a choice at all.

So I am starting with what can I cut, and while still here, I discuss with Rogers, are you willing to offer me true choice in my mix of services that meets my budget, and I openly start with, in this discussion, I have small flexibility, but you are asking to increase my prices for my existing services, I am actually looking to reduce what I pay and reducing or even eliminating services is ok with me to.  I have lived without Cable or even TV for that matter at other times in my life, I can do it again. I would like to have some, but an antenna in my area will give me 42 channels.

Internet is available lower than their proposed stand alone prices, because I may not be staying bundled anymore - land line may go, one phone on a plan for reliable price, and one on pay as you go for emergencies as we are rarely alone anymore because of my disabilities.

I can function on low speed Internet, preferably with reasonable caps from local wholesalers, and using Netflix and other options like Amazon Prime, turning it on and off depending upon my budget.

So, I will be doing a serious shop around, if we are not moving, I will give Rogers one and only one chance to listen to my needs and my budget and I have no flexibility on the budget, and I will have in my hands the prices and options of all other non BDU providers, like Over the Air, and Over the Top solutions. 

I was successful for a one year deal last summer, but I will not be asking for same service level, and I am after a reduction of price, and that is the focus of the discussion - kind of like buying a house or a car - identify your needs and desires, know what you can pay, and then if you care about your future economic well being (I no longer live in a world where my income increased each year and had a stable job - now my salary is fixed and prices increase each year, so I cut back each year, and food, housing, clothing, and health care is not an option without considering the variable ones like phone, TV and internet options).  Not a task I wish on anyone, and not one that Rogers or any company has been making easier for me.

So in closing, you will be seeing me here less and less - my focus is handling each day one at a time, with my family relationships and health being first, and most of that information will not come from here.

I will still poke in once in a while, but I fully expect that within the next 6 months, I will not have cable from Rogers (unless they can pull a rabbit out of their hat, but I also don't want to be doing this dance every year - I have much more important activiteis as mentioned that need priority).

Internet will be on a much slower speed option with a modem and a real router, provided and supported by a local company that networking and antenna's is their busines, amongst other things, and it is their local market that they care about and they offer what they can support.  Kind of like buying your car and then finding your best location for car maintenance, a local plumber, electrician and handyman.

And cell phones will be one as well due to our changing usage patterns, and Rogers drive to share everything, data heavy plans may be of use to others, but certainly not for me, and I am tired of in every phone call and interaction being pushed to services I have made very clear I am not interested and unwilling to pay for.

For those who want it and have the money to pay (and a message to the young from an aging person - jobs are not always predictable, health, and income are not predictable, and when you take on all these extra services added value items that cost more, you are cutting into your pensions, your children's education, your retirement, your ability to keep a reliable car and if you are out of a job,it is great to have that emergency fund to fall back on.  - we started putting away 25% of our income aside when I became ill - good thing, because now we have emergency funds, now almost gone, and can live on the 40% decrease in income and increased costs).

Just an old guy talking here.

So I have enjoyed talking, listening, and trying to help, the occasional rant, the occasional wrap on the knuckles when I stepped over the lines and redirection to a better way.  People who know me have been supportive and guided me when they saw I was losing my patience, and my interactions with Rogers has actually been an active activity in my therapy for mental health issues to learn to deal with the things that frustrate me and to accept and make choices when we are confronted by tough decisions.

I will pop in a few times to say goodbye to some, but it is time to move on.

I will come when I think I have a question for service I think others can help me with, or guidance on how to go forward on service questions, but I have to dedicate my energy on my health and family and this has been a great place for friendship and being part of a supportive group, but it really is time to move on.

Take care everybody, and always I wish you the best in negotiating the best deal based upon your budget and desires from services, and when it doesn't meet your needs, discuss what they can do - I still like to give them a chance - but also consider your options to change companies, offers, or even consider different ways to approach your telecom and entertainment needs.

Bruce

[OLDYELLR]

Welcome back, @BS !

I've missed your essays. I'm in about the same boat as you, retired on a fixed income, while the cost of goods and services rise every year with inflation. In fact my income diminished as my modest RIFF did with the bottomed out interest rates.  To my mind it's bundling of services that has made it complicated for people to shop around, thus staying "loyal" due to inertia.  I've had the same phone company since I came to the Woodstock area in 1970, a small outfit called North Norwich Telephones, that grew into Execulink Telecom.  I've had the same email address since I became a charter member of their dial-up Internet service over over 35 years ago and don't want to lose it switching ISPs.  I now have DSL, purportedly 15/1 Mbps, but in fact about 10% less under the best of conditions; however, it's adequate for Netflix. But sometimes it takes half a day to upload a video to Facebook and really throttles the WiFi for everyone else in the house.  I've had Rogers Cable since it came to my subdivision, although I think it was Shaw originally until the switched territories.  I guess I could switch to Rogers Home Phone and keep my number, but it's bundled with my Internet and I'd lose that discount.  I also feel more secure with a genuine copper landline because it still works when the power goes out.  My cellphone is Rogers PayGo and costs peanuts because I only turn it on and take it with me when I leave the house.  I got my first PVR, a refurbished SA8300SD, for free from Rogers for being a "good customer" in 2009, when those were phased out.  Before that I'd been using a DVDR and a couple of VCRs.  In late 2013 I got 50" Smart TV and soon after I bought a refurbished SA8300HD PVR from Shopping Channel to take advantage of it.  So far, touch wood, both PVRs have been working great and I've never had to "experience" the later models.  So that's where things stand right now. My cable bill is a hair under $100, which is the threshold I've set for perhaps moving on to something less expensive, loyalty be damned. My son and daughter have either cut back to basic cable (before the new, more expensive starter packs) or cut the cord entirely. Millennials are quite happy without cable TV. Unless our Provincial and Federal Governments change in the next elections, life will just get harder and more expensive, I'll be going the same way.

[ghobrial58]

It is very stupid policy that rogers concentrate on new client and leaving old loyal customers. I went yesterday to ask about the business cellular line for my company. The guy at Rogers store told me about all the advantages of Rogers for business which was very attractive, but when I told him I'm already a rogers client, surprise surprise he told me you are not eligible and advise me to go to bell for one month and then switch to rogers.

I have been with rogers since 20 years and it is so disgusting that the new clients are better than loyal clients  

[BS]

I have said a few times that this practice of exclusive packages for new customers, and the only way we can get at a "loyalty offer" is to go to customer relations through contacting @CommunityHelps, or phoning and go to the changes options and then wait for cancel, then even then they not offer some kind of offer.

I called last week using the cancellation option to esquire about deals and ways to cut my bill down - I got a kind person who acknowledged that the only way I can get what I need - a land line with long distance for home, and choice of specialty channels and Internet lower end - was that I was going to cut service and he understood that when the time comes I would probably go to wholesalers and an antenna and elsewhere for my minimal cell phone needs.

He was honest - that is why I have been loyal, but he was a rarity, and hard to get to.  But the reality is that Rogers doesn't offer a mix for me that meets my financial realities - Once you stop the bundling, all the other prices climb and the wholesalers win out.

Glad people are still responding to this thread - the empahsis on marketing directly to new customers and then making us haggle is very short sighted.  It is like the offer just for you - when I reach the end of a plan, they should be contacting me with an offer for me, based first on my current needs, not what we negotiated two years ago, things change.

I hate haggling.

Bruce

[57]

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@ghobrial58wrote:

It is very stupid policy that rogers concentrate on new client and leaving old loyal customers....

I have been with rogers since 20 years and it is so disgusting that the new clients are better than loyal clients  

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Rogers doesn't concentrate on new clients, however, they do provide them with "loss leaders" so that you will become a customer (perhaps switching from another provider) and then stay with them even after the promotion ends. These promotions are a fact of life in many aspects of dealings with companies and you can decide if you wish to "play the game", utilize retentions, or whatever your fancy.  Loss leaders (promotions) are not going away.

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/Home-Phone/Landline-portability/m-p/416744#M2223

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@ghobrial58wrote:

...he told me you are not eligible and advise me to go to bell for one month and then switch (back?) to rogers.

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I believe it requires being away from Rogers more than a month. Someone more familiar with Rogers' policy should have the exact information.

[ghobrial58]

Anyway, it does not make sense at all to be asked to switch to bell and then come back. I have been in marketing business since 30 years and my main goal is to keep the customers I have and then look for new clients

[57]

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@ghobrial58wrote:

Anyway, it does not make sense at all to be asked to switch to bell and then come back. I have been in marketing business since 30 years and my main goal is to keep the customers I have and then look for new clients

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If you do not want to switch, you can still negotiate the best deal possible for you.  It may require talking to "retentions" or the "Community Helps" People here, or "Share a Concern":

http://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/MyRogers/How-and-where-can-I-check-my-Rogers-Plan-details-at-My...

https://www.rogers.com/consumer/contactus/share-a-concern

I was also in Marketing/Sales for over 30 years, however, one needs to know that different industries have different procedures/philosophies/tactics to maximize the return to shareholders. 

[BS]

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I believe it requires being away from Rogers more than a month. Someone more familiar with Rogers' policy should have the exact information.

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I last heard 3 months, but don't quote me on it.

I think that people get the impression that things are directed towards new customers because publicly in advertising and on the Web site, and now it also appears from the stores, as customers, we don't see any sign of what we could get, but it is clear when you find it that they tell current customers to contact them via one of the social media methods, chat, or phone in to discuss your needs.

I don't know if the person in the store said as such, but I would hope that they said to call in or contact them.  The stores are in effect resellers and sell what Rogers gives them to sell.

It gets confusing and even as a current customer, these days, you are going to be calling in at least within 10 months to see what your next offer is because even for current customers, the packages are only 1 year, so we are actually treated just the same, and yes retentions can often help get a better deal.  About as much fun as buying a car.  The sticker price says one thing, and then you spend typically about an hour with Rogers and a few calls to get a renewal deal that fits your needs.

As @57 , it is just the way this industry is now.  Loss leader prices to new customers, they have to renew in one year - and current customers will be able usually to get a better deal by calling in and negotiating.  The industry changes so much in terms of technology and with Rogers having new technology gradually rolling out right now, hard to predict past one year what the product will be and the competition.

Bruce

[jays77]

It is an unfortunate system for those who don't feel comfortable negotiating or don't have the skills to do so.
I know several seniors who have said that it got so confusing that they just gave up and accepted that they would just have to pay the stated full price or change to lower packages.