Solve problems and turn Router/Wireless device into access modem only.

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I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 13

Solve problems and turn Router/Wireless device into access modem only.

I am not going to go into details about how to turn the Cisco or Hiltron device into a modem only, that is for other posts. But here is why you should do it.

 

The problem with lost connections and slowness really has little to do with the modem/router from Rogers and in most cases it will work just fine for most users. For those that use a lot of media or tap into US services or those really concerned about privacy they are a problem.

 

You will notice in the Status it has "DNS proxy gateway" with a local address. What this is doing is hijacking your web page requests and routing it through Rogers DNS gateway. Changing your DNS does nothing to affect this, even if you use OpenDNS or Google DNS it still goes through Rogers DNS gateway, just not their DNS server. Why?

 

I can only guess but by doing this they can probably; replace ads on websites, change search results, traffic shape, control which media services (video and radio) run well and just generally track where you go.

 

So a lot of the dropped connections etc are likely related to this practice. Cox Communications in the US uses the same method and has the same problems as Rogers, Rogers is likely just copying Cox's methods.

 

I think a way around this to turn the Rogers device into a modem only and set up your own high throughput DHCP and wireless router.

 

I am somewhat sure you then can go directly to your own designated DNS server, including Rogers if you want, but it likely will prevent Rogers hijacking your access. I think this because the modems Rogers uses are capable of disabling the "DNS proxy gateway" but in the firmware this has been disabled. In other words this was a weakness to allow customers to avoid their borderline legal activity.

 

They can't make it impossible for users to use their own DHCP and wireless devices without raising questions with the CRTC.

 

 

***edited labels***

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Resident Expert
Resident Expert
Posts: 13,852

Re: Solve problems and turn Router/Wireless device into access modem only.

As i posted in your other thread...

The DNS proxy gateway, is NOT what you are thinking it is.

The DNS prox gateway listed, is the IP address of the gateway modem itself.

The gateway modem, is NOT a DNS server itself obviously, but it can PASS that information along, if that IP address is entered in a devices configuration as its DNS server.
EG: You set up your network card to be:
IP: 192.168.0.100
Subnet: 255.255.255.0
Gateway: 192.168.0.1
DNS: 192.168.0.1

It will act as a RELAY to the DNS servers, that are listed in your gateways modems configuration.

We use that here currently at work.  We do NOT host our own DNS server here.  But we have a local internal IP address for it (10.10.3.2 for us).  This acts as a DNS proxy, which is pointed at our PARRENT domain, hosted in the USA, at 10.3.3.3. They are running their own DNS server there.  (we are conntected to them, through a dual bonded T1 MPLS connection)

 

If you change the DNS server on the gateway modems (if you are able to), localy on the device, or as you have described via using your own 3rd party router in bridged mode with the DNS servers listed there.. it will ONLY go through that DNS server. 

Unfortunately, ANY of the features that you have described, like monitoring, traffic shaping, etc.. is done at a completely different level.. doesnt matter WHICH DNS server you use, the traffic is STILL routed through rogers equipment first, before reaching the rest of the internet... and any of that, is done at that level.

(this is comming, from a systems admin, who works with larger networks and equipment that what 98% of all home users have/use)



I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 13

Re: Solve problems and turn Router/Wireless device into access modem only.

Yes, I do understand, your logic needs a little refinement.

 

"The DNS prox gateway listed, is the IP address of the gateway modem itself" Yes, that is correct, what is probably happening with this modem is all DNS requests from connected devices are passed through this proxy to the Rogers DNS gateway.

As you said "We do NOT host our own DNS server here.  But we have a local internal IP address for it (10.10.3.2 for us).  This acts as a DNS proxy, which is pointed at our PARRENT domain, hosted in the USA, at 10.3.3.3."

 

This is correct in logic but the 10.10 is not really a DNS proxy but is really part of a VPN that you have set up, what Rogers is doing is pointing to their parent domain which can then inject their ads etc into the calls.

 

And yes "the traffic is STILL routed through rogers equipment first" but the difference is Rogers is not just keeping the DNS server - a DNS server is simply a "phonebook," as you know, but they are running it first through a "gateway" computer doing ????

 

Perhaps you can tell me what the function of the Rogers DNS gateway IP is for, as it is not required to run a DNS server. And neither is a DNS proxy in the modem.

 

Try this change the DNS server for a computer on the Rogers network to a DNS server in the US, spoof your geolocation (you can do this with a simple plug-in for some browsers) then go to an American media site - and then explain to me how all those Canadian ads are getting on the US media's website.

 

The exact problem is as you stated "It will act as a RELAY to the DNS servers, that are listed in your gateways modems configuration" the DNS proxy gateway in the modem is relaying to the DNS gateway of Rogers. Again why are they doing this ??? They are hijacking the requests.


(this is comming, from a systems admin, who works with larger networks and equipment that NO home user would have.)

Resident Expert
Resident Expert
Posts: 13,852

Re: Solve problems and turn Router/Wireless device into access modem only.

We actually DO NOT have a VPN between the two of us.
WE have a MPLS connection between the two of us.  While yes it goes across the internet, its a private segricgated connection.  There is NO VPN at either side.  If i unpluged all other equpement, and just pluged into the T1 router on this end, i could connect to the US machines without an issue.
We are a child domain, to the US domain.

No, the Proxy is NOT needed, in most cases.  If anything is served an address, from the DHCP server on the gaeway, it is given automaticaly, the 2 addresses saved in the gateway.
But if you are MANUALLY setting up a device, with its own IP address.. you must specify the DNS servers manually.
You COULD enter in the rogers one if you wanted to.  The PROXY that is listed there, is an alternative.. for ease of setup.
So you can enter in your manual config.. the same gateway ip address.. and NOT have to do the extra work of looking up the DNS, etc.
I used to have this at my HOME setup, prior to the gateways with the older D2 modems.
When my 3rd party router, connected to the modem, it got its external IP address, etc. (i cant remember if it pulled the rogers DNS servers, or if i put a manual one it, its been a while).
But on the setup on those PC's where i would enter in a MANUAL address (which i do for 2/3 of my devices), i would always enter in my gateway address, in the DNS server field.  my 3rd party router, did the same thing, acting as a proxy, for whatever DNS servers it had stored in it.

 

"but they are running it first through a "gateway" computer doing ????"
They are not running it through ANY gateway computer or anything.  If its running through the rogers DNS, its going through them... if its not, its not.

That is the address of YOUR gateway modem... its ONLY pointing to your modem.. and ONLY used if someone is pointing TO it.

It is in NO way pointing to anything else.  Now if that address was something different, that would be another story.

 

As for the adds? Its a BAD example.
MOST adds you see on a site.. weither a media site.. google itself, etc... are all hosted/ran, by one of MANY add hosting companies.
Unless you have EVERYTHING off cookie wise, etc (and even then so, can be based purely off your IP address)... MOST add tracking is done this way.
regardless of canadian adds vs us adds.. 90% of the adds i get, are Telecom (rogers, bell, etc), WoW, or gaming?  How is that? The add companies, through cookies, etc and your IP, track WHERE and WHAT type of sites you go to, and serve adds, based on that.

 



I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 13

Re: Solve problems and turn Router/Wireless device into access modem only.

I am sorry, you are not a tier 3 network administrator - you have answered as a Tier one employee which is fine for most problems here. 

 

My advice stands to those wanting to solve issues with devices Boxee, PS3, Internet radios and have other network connection issue, by pass the Rogers DHCP and DNS and use the modem as a modem only.

Resident Expert
Resident Expert
Posts: 13,852

Re: Solve problems and turn Router/Wireless device into access modem only.

You do not know my qualifications.. please refrain from commenting on them.

You are correct, in general OVERALL, using the device as a modem, and using your own 3rd party router, is the best setup for most issues.. and does solve MANY problems.
I am at home, using a MIX of things, running off of the gateway itself.
I have 3 PCS set up with manual IPs and google DNS servers (2 wired 1 wireless).  2 printers, pointing at the proxy address iteself (so using rogers).  2 other devices manually set up, one with google on with the proxy address.
there are 4 phones, 3 tablets, a smart TV, a 360, and a laptop, all wireless via DHCP.
ALL connect fine, at the same time, and generally dont have issues connecting, nor browsing anything.
(other than the ocassional rogers DNS server issue.. where its slow/lagy/down.. why its on devices that dont use it quite as much)

But you are able to by pass the rogers DNS servers by OTHER means, and even by default, your own router connected, may get pushed the same rogers DNS servers. You can obviously change these on the 3rd party router.

 

But give it a try on with the modem setup.. most routers support it.. you can set up a manual connection with your routers IP as the DNS.. doing the same thing.

 

Have a good day.



Community Manager
Community Manager
Posts: 3,352

Re: Solve problems and turn Router/Wireless device into access modem only.

Let's all remember to keep the discussion courteous, accurate and strictly technical in nature.

 

Thanks Smiley Happy

 

RogersDarrell

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 13

Re: Solve problems and turn Router/Wireless device into access modem only.

Thank you, I do try to keep it courteous, but all advice is not equal.

 

Maybe you can tell me the purpose of forcing all LAN device DNS requests thru the modem DND proxy and then, it appears, to the Rogers DNS gateway? What does the Rogers DNS gateway do, as its not needed to run a system, as far as I can tell.

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 124

Re: Solve problems and turn Router/Wireless device into access modem only.

Let's try to clear this up.

 

Many gateways can act as a DNS proxy and usually do so for ease of configuration and caching of DNS requests so other clients on the local LAN can have faster lookups. A DNS proxy will make DNS requests to the upstream DNS servers on the clients behalf(definition of a proxy). You can add options to the DNS proxy to change the way requests are made but not usually done on ISP routers.

 

Client-->DNS Proxy(eg router) --> DNS server (whatever server is configured)

 

You can easily bypass the the DNS proxy by configuring DNS servers Manually on each client or by Addind the DNS servers to the DHCP scope. Instead of 192.168.0.1 it would be 8.8.8.8 and 8.8.4.4 for googles DNS servers.

 

Client --> DNS server

 

The real issue is Rogers DNS servers. They are slow and will always return ads and suggested links when you type in the wrong URL. 

 

Rogers DNS:

www.google.ca = webpage

www.google.casfrdaf = Add filled webpage with Suggested links (click the Links and rogers makes $$)

 

Other DNS Like Googles:

www.google.ca = webpage

www.google.casfrdaf = DNS error or server not found the way it should be.

 

The easiest way to use other DNS servers on your router is to configure the DHCP server option to use DNS servers you want so the clients make the DNS requests directly to the DNS servers. I cannot recall if the SMC routers allowed you to specify your own DNS servers. Someone would have to confirm what DHCP options are available on the different gateways.

 

You could also use the DNS proxy and manualy over ride the DNS entries provided by Rogers but their gateways usually do not do this.

 

Converting the Gateway to bridge mode will also give you more flexability by using you own gateway.

 

Here is an old post about using OpenDNS to accomplish the same task.

 

http://benworks.wordpress.com/2008/07/21/rogers-does-it-againhijacking-failed-dns-lookups/

 

Hope this helps.

 

 

Resident Expert
Resident Expert
Posts: 13,852

Re: Solve problems and turn Router/Wireless device into access modem only.

Darrel is not a technical support person, and wouldnt be able to answer those questions... primarily the MEDIA team on here only has access to account details, etc.

All LAN devices are NOT forced through the DNS proxy.  ONLY if, you are choosing DHCP, will it assign that address.
(For example, i just switched my server, from static, to DHCP.)

IP: 192.168.0.17
subnet: 255.255.255.0
Gateway: 192.168.0.1
DNS: 192.168.0.1

Doing an NSlookup on yahoo.ca, results in it using  the 192.168.0.1, which resolves to a ROGERS DNS server, as it should.

Using my STATIC IP on that server, using the google DNS servers. Only mention of 192.168.0.1 is the gateway.

Doing an NSlookup on yahoo.ca again.. resolves to 8.8.8.8, showing the google DNS server address that it is pulling the DNS from.  Its not TOUCHING the 192.168.0.1, nor either of the rogers DNS servers.

The DNS Proxy.. is just an EXTRA, yes, and is not needed.. but its just another way, of DHCP assigning the DNS servers that it has stored.

IF you are not able to change the DNS stored in the gateway.. you have TWO options.

Do as you sugested, and bridge, where you can more easily change them in the 3rd party router.
OR

Set static device to device, which WILL use them and not anything else.