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Once again lower than expected upload speed

Qubit
I plan to stick around

Recently work was done in my area to "improve the Rogers network" since then I am seeing values of upload much smaller than I have assigned. Shoudl be 50 Mbps and I am getting between 10 and 30 at peak hour (from 6pm to 12am) and around 45 outside.

 

I have contacted rogers and they can't tell if there's a problem and they sent a technician and investigated but discarded a problem with the area, but the problem persists.

 

I am getting amazing download (in fact 1900 Mbps) but the upload is unstable and always less than the 50 Mbps that it used to be.

 

Any help will be appreciated.

I copy  the data from Down and upstreams. Do you see anything wrong with the upstream taht may be jsutifying this?

 

Channel IDLock StatusFrequencySNRPower LevelModulation
Downstream
Channel Bonding Value
6
1
2
3
4
5
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
603 MHz
279 MHz
579 MHz
585 MHz
591 MHz
597 MHz
609 MHz
615 MHz
621 MHz
633 MHz
639 MHz
645 MHz
651 MHz
657 MHz
663 MHz
669 MHz
675 MHz
681 MHz
687 MHz
693 MHz
699 MHz
705 MHz
711 MHz
717 MHz
723 MHz
825 MHz
831 MHz
837 MHz
843 MHz
849 MHz
855 MHz
861 MHz
350000000
216000000
41.0 dB
40.0 dB
41.6 dB
41.6 dB
41.6 dB
41.5 dB
41.1 dB
40.9 dB
40.7 dB
40.6 dB
40.7 dB
40.6 dB
40.8 dB
41.1 dB
41.3 dB
41.3 dB
40.8 dB
41.5 dB
41.5 dB
41.5 dB
41.9 dB
41.6 dB
41.6 dB
41.5 dB
41.6 dB
41.6 dB
41.6 dB
41.6 dB
41.6 dB
41.6 dB
41.6 dB
41.5 dB
38.8 dB
39.4 dB
4.6 dBmV
0.5 dBmV
5.3 dBmV
5.3 dBmV
5.4 dBmV
5.3 dBmV
4.5 dBmV
4.3 dBmV
3.9 dBmV
3.8 dBmV
3.8 dBmV
4.1 dBmV
4.2 dBmV
4.7 dBmV
4.7 dBmV
4.8 dBmV
4.9 dBmV
5.4 dBmV
5.4 dBmV
5.3 dBmV
6.0 dBmV
5.7 dBmV
5.5 dBmV
5.5 dBmV
5.5 dBmV
5.9 dBmV
6.1 dBmV
6.0 dBmV
6.1 dBmV
5.7 dBmV
5.6 dBmV
5.6 dBmV
0.5 dBmV
0.0 dBmV
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
256 QAM
OFDM
OFDM
*Channel ID 6 is the Primary channel
Channel IDLock StatusFrequencySymbol RatePower LevelModulationChannel Type
Upstream
Channel Bonding Value
1
2
3
4
10
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
Locked
21 MHz
25 MHz
32 MHz
38 MHz
4 MHz
2560
5120
5120
5120
0
44.8 dBmV
46.0 dBmV
46.5 dBmV
47.8 dBmV
43.7 dBmV
QAM
QAM
QAM
QAM
OFDMA
TDMA_AND_ATDMA
ATDMA
ATDMA
ATDMA
TDMA

 

***EDITED LABELS***

6 REPLIES 6

Re: Once again lower than expected upload speed

-G-
Resident Expert
Resident Expert

@Qubit Your signal levels look fine.

 

Your downstream channel configuration has OFDM channels at 216 and 350 MHz.  I only have one at 350.  This isn't necessarily bad; just that the network team seems to be testing a different configuration in your area.

 

Upstream, looks like they are trying to get an OFDMA channel working at 4MHz.  Don't know why.  That can be a very noisy (and traditionally unusable) part of the spectrum, unless your cable plant is very clean.  I would have expected them to be using 42 MHz.  However, if that channel is unstable, it could cause the modem to drop off the network, or pause forwarding packets until all channels in the upstream bonding group come up.

 

As for the upload speeds that you are seeing, I'm still wondering what's going on at a protocol level.  With TCP/IP, if you are transferring data and data packets get lost, your computer does not know why; it could be that the computer system at the other end of the connection is overloaded or it could be that that network is congested.  Either way, the worst thing that it can do is to keep sending data as fast as it can... so the protocol stack backs off, sends data at a lower pace, then ramps up and keeps ramping up until it detects that it is sending data as fast as it sustainably can.  The question is, what is happening at a network level that is causing your system to back off and send data at only 10 Mbps?

 

At the network level, Rogers is also doing rate limiting.  From your computer's perspective (the one that is getting 1900 Mbps down), it has a 2.5 Gigabit Ethernet adapter (or faster).  It wants to transmit at that speed but the network will only allow it to send data at 50 Mbps.  Your computer also needs to "back off" when other computers in your home start sending data so that you share bandwidth fairly and effectively.  If you have a laptop with Wi-Fi, you can move it a few feet and its network link could suddenly have only a fraction of the amount of bandwidth available that it had a moment ago.

 

My point is that computers, routinely, need to be able to adapt to changing network conditions without knowing why they changing, and they do their best to adapt in the most appropriate way.  If the underlying network does not behave predictably, your computer may not send data at the full speed that it theoretically could.

 

With speed tests, keep in mind that depending on network conditions, the speed test may not always be able to measure the upload speed correctly, especially if congestion controls kicks in and your send rate does not ramp up to full speed before the speed test completes.

Re: Once again lower than expected upload speed

Qubit
I plan to stick around
Thank you very much for the detailed response. This is helpful and I have a bunch of follow up questions.

-first I can tell you that during rush hour I have also tested the system with only one computer hardwired and disconnecting everything else and I see the degradation of upload speeds, so it is not a problem of bandwidth share with the reset of the network.

-I am using Speedtest for the tests.

-I am able to hit the 50 mbps upstream after 3am or in the morning hours and the most problems start at around 6pm onwards. Does that sugggest the problem may be on the node? Apparently Roger’s did check that there was no packet loss and closed the ticket that was opened (who knows at what time they performed the check anyways) and they want to send in a contracted (not senior) technician.

I am frankly not sure if I should pursue this route as I see that technicians come and don’t really do anything if the signal levels are good (which seems to be the case based on my router data)

I guess what I wonder is if the problem could be in my local connection (some sort of noise in the upstream channels) considering that it happens at rush hour and it works outside it?

Thanks again!

Re: Once again lower than expected upload speed

Datalink
Resident Expert
Resident Expert

@Qubit if that is what you're observing, traffic congestion during evening hours and you're back to 50 Mb/s at 3:00 am when the rest of the world is sleeping, you're dealing with a congestion issue, either at the neighbourhood node, the Cable Modem Termination System (CMTS) or both.  

 

If you knew the load levels at the neighbourhood node and CMTS, you would understand in a heartbeat, what the problem is.  Unfortunately, Rogers doesn't release that data.  What you really need to know are the loads at various times, such as the evening hours.  That would explain the poor performance during the evening hours.  If history is any indication, you would probably see a continual ramp up until about 11 pm, and then a ramp down, reaching a minimum around 3 to 4 am.  I have no doubt that Rogers has that load data for all of its neighbourhood nodes and CMTS equipment, either on a minute to minute basis, or perhaps every 5 minutes, at a minimum.  Its very unfortunate that Rogers isn't forthcoming about those loads, and their affect on both downstream and upstream data rates.  

 

Next time that you call tech support, ask to speak with a Level II tech regarding the loads on the neighbourhood node and CMTS, given the poor performance that you're seeing.  You might be able to get an answer out of the Level II tech.  And, next time that a field tech visits, ask him or her for the current load on the neighbourhood node.  The tech should be able to access that data.  Fwiw, beyond telling you what the current load happens to be, the tech really can't do anything for you in terms of resolving a neighbourhood node load issue.  That's a network design issue that Rogers has to solve.

 

Fwiw, as @-G-  pointed out, according to a Rogers filing with the CRTC, it would appear that Docsis 3.0 modems and below will be discontinued as of Dec 31st, 2023.  So, if thats the actual plan, that frees up a considerable amount of bandwidth in the cable system that can be put to use for both downstream and upstream OFDM channels.  Rogers is remaining silent on their intentions, but, perhaps, if that is the plan, then customers will start to see better performance after the new year.  One can always hope.  

Re: Once again lower than expected upload speed

-G-
Resident Expert
Resident Expert

@Qubit wrote:

I am frankly not sure if I should pursue this route as I see that technicians come and don’t really do anything if the signal levels are good (which seems to be the case based on my router data)

I guess what I wonder is if the problem could be in my local connection (some sort of noise in the upstream channels) considering that it happens at rush hour and it works outside it?

Below your Downstream and Upstream stats, there is a "CM Error Codewords" stats table.  Ideally, the "Uncorrectable Codewords" stats should be all zeros across all channels.  (Don't panic if you see a huge number of uncorrectables, especially if you have not rebooted your gateway in a while.  My uncorrectable errors can be all-zeros for a week, then I sometimes see a ton of errors in the morning.  I think this is indicative of Rogers doing work overnight.).

 

If you have a large number of uncorrectable errors, I would reboot the gateway to clear the stats.  If the uncorrectable counts start to climb immediately, especially on the OFDM channels, and climb at a fairly rapid rate, that is not good.  Any uncorrectable errors represents packet loss, and it is also indicative that either your line or the cable plant serving your area has problems (noise?) that need to be investigated.  Only Rogers can see what the error stats look like on the upstream channels.

Re: Once again lower than expected upload speed

Qubit
I plan to stick around

This is very helpful and informative. Thanks @Datalink and @-G- 

 

I rebooted midday yesterday and now I got this

 

Channel IDUnerrored CodewordsCorrectable CodewordsUncorrectable Codewords

CM Error Codewords
6
1
2
3
4
5
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
457875035
704581910
704588409
704593456
704597725
704602851
704609058
704614276
704619499
704624356
704630620
704636464
704641685
704646185
704652590
704656670
704661941
704667319
704671928
704676777
704681329
704686448
704692367
704695917
704702171
704707053
704711807
704717337
704721888
704727237
704728666
704727817
593804276
457875035
390207094
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
587887924
390207094
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0
0

 

Which probably is good news and this is indeed a congestion issue. It does bother me that no CS representative or the escalation to investigate could figure anything out about it or check the neighbourhood load. Perhaps it's also taht they didn't check ti at the right time.

 

I was wondering too, is there any idea out there of when they're going to give more symmetric speeds over DOCSIS 3.1 or even implement DOCSIS 4 at all? perhaps that could be the beginning of the solution of the problems as they would likely need to update the nodes.

Re: Once again lower than expected upload speed

Datalink
Resident Expert
Resident Expert

I don't believe that the Level I techs, that you talk to via telephone, have access to that data.  So, in a normal conversation, trouble shooting, this wouldn't come up during that conversation.  You need to escalate the situation to a Level II tech.  And that might be just a simple request to the Level I tech to talk to a Level II tech about the loads at the neighbouhood node and CMTS. 

 

The problem is, that as customers, we need to understand that there is more to this than good signal levels.  If your signal levels are very good, and your data rates come to a crawl when the kids arrive home from school and in the evening hours, and then return to normal during the very early morning hours, then you're looking at network congestion.  Ergo, the question about the loads at the neighbourhood node and CMTS.  Typically, one would never think to ask the question as you have to be somewhat aware of the network architecture, aware of the possibility of congestion at the neighbourhood node and CMTS and know enough to even ask a question regarding data loads.  I suspect that in most cases, the issue is at the neighbourhood node, but, I could be wrong. 

 

In an updated filing to the CRTC, dated 1 Nov 2023, Rogers proposed increased speeds for TPIAs.  From that filing comes the following, original data rates on the left, proposed changes on the right:

 

1Mbps Upstream (U) / 5 Mbps Downstream (D) (Ontario only);
1MbpsU / 10MbpsD (Ontario only);
5MbpsU / 30MbpsD (Ontario only);
10MbpsU / 50MbpsD,                                     50MbpsU / 50MbpsD (Ontario, where available)
30MbpsU / 75MbpsD;
30MbpsU / 100Mbps (Ontario only);
30MbpsU / 150MbpsD,                               150MbpsU / 150MbpsD (Ontario, where available)
30MbpsU / 300MbpsD (Ontario only);
30MbpsU / 500MbpsD,                               150MbpsU / 500MbpsD (Ontario, where available)
50MbpsU / 1024MbpsD,
50MbpsU / 1500MbpsD (Ontario only),   150MbpsU / 1500MbpsD (Ontario, where available)

 

It will be interesting to see what the TPIAs do with this, given their wholesale costs.  The interesting point is that Rogers has filed to increase the TPIA upload rates to 150 Mb/s, which brings about the question, what about Rogers own customers?  I haven't seen anything regarding upload data rate increases for Rogers customers. 

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