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I've Been Around
Posts: 1

MoCA

Hello,

 

So I have been struggling to get WiFi coverage to my whole house, 3 stories plus a basement. The Router, Modem, is on the second floor, connection to the basement is not great. I have tried bridges, powerline adapters, better routers etc. I recently found these MoCA ethernet to coax adapters, I'm wondering if they are compatible with rogers, if anyone has any experience, and if I will need a MoCA filter? I only have basic cable.

 

Thanks.

 

***Edited Labels***

Solved! Go to Solution.
Retired Moderator RogersPrasana
Retired Moderator
Posts: 624

Re: MoCA

Hi @sufficient

 

 

Welcome to the Community Forums!

 

One of Resident Experts @Datalink @Gdkitty@VivienM can surely assist you with your options with a MoCa filter and connection options.

 

 

@RogersPrasana

Resident Expert
Resident Expert
Posts: 928

Re: MoCA


@sufficient wrote:

Hello,

 

So I have been struggling to get WiFi coverage to my whole house, 3 stories plus a basement. The Router, Modem, is on the second floor, connection to the basement is not great. I have tried bridges, powerline adapters, better routers etc. I recently found these MoCA ethernet to coax adapters, I'm wondering if they are compatible with rogers, if anyone has any experience, and if I will need a MoCA filter? I only have basic cable.

 

Thanks.

 

***Edited Labels***


MoCA networking is so rare I don't think many people would have much experience with it...

 

What other hardware have you tried exactly? I assume, naturally, that running Ethernet wiring is not an option? How high-end were the 'better routers' you tried?



Resident Expert
Resident Expert
Posts: 6,111

Re: MoCA

As @VivienM indicated, it seems like MoCA ethernet is pretty rare. In theory it should work without problem depending
on what cable boxes are running in your home. You indicated that you only have basic cable, so, no Whole Home PVR,
which uses MoCA as well? I thought that the frequency spectrum of the MoCA devices would be a problem as it overlaps
the Rogers DOCSIS 3.0 range of 5 Mhz to 1002 Mhz, but it would appear that the MoCA adapters, including the ones built
into the Rogers cable boxes will stay out of the way of anything else that happens to be running. If you haven't had
a chance to do some research, here are a few links and facts for MoCA 1.1 and 2.0.

 

http://www.multichannel.com/news/technology/make-way-moca-20/389938

 

http://www.mocalliance.org/MoCA1/index.htm

 

http://www.mocalliance.org/MoCA1/specification/MoCA_Specification_for_Device_RF_Characteristics.pdf

 

Along comes MoCA 2.0 which has a slightly higher frequency range:

 

http://www.mocalliance.org/MoCA2/specifications.htm

 

http://www.mocalliance.org/MoCA2/specification/MoCA_2_Device_RF_Characteristics-150406d.pdf

 

Have a look at page 5 of this last PDF which shows a home cable network with splitters and MoCA devices. This is an extreme example of someone with numerous cable boxes which wouldn't be unusual for some Rogers customers. Page 7 figure 2-1 shows the MoCA 2.0 Extended Band D frequency plan and shows where the lower DOCSIS 3.0 frequency range of 54 to 1002 Mhz sits in relation to the D band. So, with those two systems operating within their own frequency ranges, it shouldn't be much of an issue to run a MoCA system.


Here the data rates for MoCA 1.1 and 2.0 and some interesting notes:

 

MoCA 1.1: 175 Mbps MAC (net) throughputs and 270 Mbps PHY rate (my interpretation for this is a 270 Mb/s signaling

                     rate, MoCA device to MoCA device, and a 175 Mb/s ethernet throughput. No guarantee but it makes sense

                     that the MoCA device would wrap the ethernet packet in its own signalling packet.)

                     Operating frequency range is 500 to 1500 MHz


MoCA 2.0: Two performance modes of 400 and 800 (bonded) Mbps net throughputs respectively.

                     One Gbps for point-to-point mode.

                     This spectrum expansion (500 Mhz to 1650 Mhz) allows multiple MoCA networks simultaneously
                     coexistent with provider services


So, doing some quick reading, there is MoCA 1.1, 2.0 and now bonded MoCA 2.0 which is very new, and which uses channel or frequency bonding similar to Rogers channel bonding for higher internet rates. As you can see from the numbers above, that bonding doubles the data rate.

 

Looking around, if I were going to try this, I'd shoot for a bonded MoCA 2.0 adapter. They are hard to locate in
Canada. Tigerdirect.ca is the only online store that has these:

 

http://www.actiontec.com/339.html

 

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/SearchTools/item-details.asp?EdpNo=9813159&CatId=467

 

Why would I choose this over any others? Simply due to the data rate running bonded channels. I'm interested in the
upcoming gigabit service, and in theory this is as close as you could get to handling gigabit service over a MoCA
adapter at the present time. Note that the point to point mode for MoCA is 1 Gb/s. So, if for example you had the
modem parked in the basement where the cable terminations for the upstairs rooms are located, you could run a point to
point, or basement to upstairs room ethernet service over cable. Pair that with a good router and you would, in
theory have pretty fast internet service. Of course that also depends on the condition and age of that cabling.

 

There are some considerations that go along with this.

 

1. Your existing wallplate coax connectors would probably require replacing for high frequency connectors. These can
be found at Lowes and electronics stores usually. Here's a link to the Lowes connectors:

 

https://www.lowes.ca/coax-cable/ideal-3-ghz-f-splice-adapter-4-pack_g1200823.html?SearchTerm=85-339

 

These are 3 Ghz connectors that will support MoCA and satellite systems as well.

 

2. You might need a MoCA Point of Entry (POE) filter. That really depends on what you currently have installed for a
splitter or amplifier. Here is what a MoCA filter looks like:

 

http://www.antronix.com/antronix-Products-Satellite.php

 

http://www.telestehospitality.com/echobox-423.html

 

If you needed to install one of these, it would go between the incoming cable and the splitter, if it was in fact necessary. You might be able to get one from the local Rogers Store. Not sure, but give it a try. If you had an amplifier on the cable system, there is a good chance that it might be MoCA qualified. Either way, you will have to look at your incoming cable and determine what you have, splitter or amplifier and let us know. Looking at the Antronix spec for one of the amplifiers, it doesn't have the full upper frequency range required for the MoCA 2.0 extended Delta Frequency Band, which would limit the channel bonding and limit the data rate. At any rate, you need a MoCA POE filter or qualified amplifier installed to prevent backfeeding MoCA data out to the neighbourhood node, causing problems for your neighbours.


The problematic part of all of this will be the splitter or amplifier depending on what you have. There are MoCA 2.0 qualified splitters available on the market, but at the present time, it would appear that Antronix, which is used by Rogers does not have one available. Why is that important? Because the cable system in the home runs down to the splitter or amplifier, what you essentially have is an internal cable network with the splitter(s) or amplifier as its node connecting to the outside world at that point. The MoCA data which would travel from port to port on the internal side of this network must have the full frequency support in order for the MoCA network to operate at all. Without that frequency range, you would get very poor performance.Here is a link to Antronix, which shows "MoCA-Optimized Splitters" as "Coming Soon".

 

http://www.antronix.com/antronix-Products-MoCA.php

 

Here is one company that manufactures MoCA 2.0 splitters:

 

http://starbursttechnologies.com/portfolio_page/moca-2-0-5-1675-mhz-splitter/

 

Here is a link to a pdf product sheet from Premier. Look at the last section of page two for MoCA 2.0 qualified
spitters.

 

http://www.dependonpremier.com/files/sales_sheets/premier_splitter.pdf


So, my view on this so far is that its definitely possible, I'd be shooting for MoCA 2.0. It might require you to replace your current splitter, if that is what you have and install a MoCA filter as well. Keep in mind that this would be your own equipment, which should not cause problems with Rogers cable signals or data. If you had to call in a tech for any signal issues, the first thing he or she would do is remove your splitter and filter, replace them with Rogers equipment and charge you for the visit due to customer installed equipment. The fact that Antronix doesn't appear to have MoCA 2.0 qualified equipment is problematic. That should be a matter of time before it hits the streets. If your splitter was removed, you would suffer a performance loss on the MoCA network. An alternate plan would be to run the MoCA network as a sub-network, connected to the Rogers splitter. That could work depending on the signal levels at the modem and the other device, such as a cable or phone modem. At this point you're getting into the nitty-gritty details of the signal levels and data paths. The cable network diagram that I referred to earlier shows examples of the sub-networks.


So, having said all of that, the one thing I would check for first, before anything else is the presence of structured wiring. That is a wire bundle consisting of two RG-6 cables for satellite or cable, one Cat 5e cable for data and Cat 3, possibly Cat 5e for telephones. That bundle runs from the basement or utility room structured wiring cabinet to each room where those services are required. If you have a newer home and it is installed, typically a contractor will install a cable or telephone connector on the appropriate cable and tuck the remaining wiring in behind the wallplate. Its up to the home owner to discover the bundle and put it to use by installing the remaining keystone connectors, a multi-port wallplate and gigabit switch in the basement to support gigabit ethernet throughout the home. That can be completed by the home owner. It takes a few tools, connectors and time, but it can be done.  If you happen to have structured wiring in your home, hiding behind the wallplates, that would make this problem much easier to solve.  

 

You are looking for something that should resemble the following pictures, without the ends exposed:

 

http://flylib.com/books/2/545/1/html/2/images/f07-09.jpg

 

http://www.3starinc.com/images/super/HNC2_800x600t.jpg

 

http://cache-m1.smarthome.com/media/catalog/product/cache/1/image/9df78eab33525d08d6e5fb8d27136e95/8...

 

http://fadden.com/tech/homewiring/images/speedwrap.jpg

 

Here is an example of a cable bundle with all of the connectors (keystones) attached. These are hidden behind the wallplate when the installation is done. In your case, all you need or want is just the one cable connector.

 

https://farm6.static.flickr.com/5231/5911049732_c98debcf67_b.jpg

 

And here is an example of the finished product with two cable outlets, one Cat5e ethernet connector, and one Cat 3 or Cat 5e connector for telephones.

 

http://extremehowto.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/art_60351_homewirelead.gif

 

 

 

Lastly, there is a new generation of powerline devices out on the market now, which uses multiple paths as specified in the new HomePlug AV2 MIMO standard to increase the data throughput. That has also come up recently on the forum.


Here's a link to a recent review:

 

http://www.techhive.com/article/2868314/home-networking/the-essential-guide-to-buying-a-homeplug-eth...
including-6-hands-on-reviews.html

 

Have a look at the throughput chart, which is rather interesting. If you wanted to look at other reviews, ensure that the devices that you look at are HomePlug AV2 MIMO qualified. The one thing to consider is where to place the devices. For the best performance, they should be installed so that the electrical circuits that they run off of are located on the same side of the electrical panel, so that the data path is from the electrical socket where the initial device is plugged into, down to the electical panel, along the internal bus bars of that side of the panel that connects that circuit, and then out to some room on the same side of that panel. That might mean that the second device is not connected in the room that you would prefer. It might end up being in a room that happens to be as close as you can get, and still remain on the same side of the electrical panel. From there, you would have to rely on wifi, or possibly connecting thru the wall by installing a low voltage electrical box on both sides of the wall so that you can run a short RG-6 cable from side to side. That wouldn't be hard to do.  

 

Ok, that's a pile of info to digest, all to say that yes, what you are trying to do should be possible, but, you have to take care of a couple of other details, wallplate connectors, MoCA 2.0 qualified splitter and MoCA POE filter. If you have any questions, don't hesitate to ask.



Resident Expert
Resident Expert
Posts: 928

Re: MoCA

One other thought: I would be very nervous about running any kind of MoCA gear (especially from the Netgears and D-Links of the world, i.e. companies not renowned for top-quality gear) on coax cable that's also used for Rogers. 

 

If you have a spare run of coax from the basement to a room, and you want to run MoCA on that, then... great. But I worry that adding potentially moody MoCA gear to the 'live' Rogers cable might negatively affect your signal strength or create the risk of other weird signal problems. Not to mention, if you do have any kind of signal problem, first thing tech support will do is blame your MoCA gear... 



I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 11

Re: MoCA

I'm interested in MoCA as well.  Read up on it, and it sounds like it's a doable alternative down in my basement for watching Netflix, etc.  Did you go for it?  Did you install MoCA?  If you did, has your wireless connection improved?

Thanks much.  Your response will be helpful.

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 11

Re: MoCA

Thanks for the very thorough and extensive info, DataLink. Obviously most of the info you provided is way over my tech knowhow, but it was sufficient to get a basic handle on what MoCA is. I purchased a MoCA adapter kit (actiontec ECB2500) to see if this option would work. I only have Rogers internetin my home, relying on Netflix video streaming. Hooked up the MoCA devices and no COAX light on both devices. From what I read in your post, I may need MoCA compatible splitters. Don't know if Rogers will replace existing splitters to be MoCA compatible. Exploring signing up for whole home PVR which I've been told is MoCA ready. Will that work as an option?Thanks for any input/recommendation.
Resident Expert
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Posts: 6,111

Re: MoCA

In your home, if every room has a cable wallplate connector, that cable outlet leads to a common point in the basement.  Right now, I would bet that the only cable connected at that point is the cable that leads up to your internet modem.  So, if you for example installed the actiontec on the modem cable, its missing the other connection point to connect to.  So, at the point downstairs (I'm assuming in the basement), you would need to install a splitter on the incoming cable, and ahead of that splitter you would install a MoCA filter to prevent any MoCA signals from leaving your home.  So, it would look like:  

 

incoming cable .... MoCA filter ... splitter (two port) ... port 1 .... to Actiontec adapter .....(coax and ethernet cable) ...  Internet modem

                                                                                                 port 2 ...... to Actiontec second adapter ....... Netflix via ethernet

 

For the splitter, you would need one that is indicated to run from 5 Mhz to 2 Ghz. Here is one from Lowe's Canada:

 

https://www.lowes.ca/1/1/185751-zinc-2-way-coax-video-cable-splitter-from-ideal.html

 

This runs up to 2400 Mhz, so, if you chose to go to MoCA 2.0, which has extended frequency ranges above 1 Ghz, this would be ok. 

I would recommend buying one that runs up to 2400 Mhz anyways.  

 

https://www.lowes.ca/1/3/cable-splitter

 

I'm trying to find a MoCA filter that you can buy at a local store, but haven't found one yet.  Possibly the Rogers store might have some on hand and they might be willing to supply that at no cost.

 

One food for thought point is to pull off the wallplate and check behind it to see if you have structured wiring installed.   If so, you will see an additional RG-6 cable, and an ethernet and telephone cable waiting for connectors to be installed.  If so, you wouldn't need to run MoCA.  You could use the ethernet cabling to run data all over the home.  So, that is the first thing that I would check for.  Then, look for an additional RG-6 cable that is typically used for cable or satellite.  If you didn't have ethernet but had another RG-6 cable, you could run your own internal RG-6 network to run data around the home, and you wouldn't need a MoCA filter as the cable network wouldn't be connected to any outside cables.  The MoCA adapter could then run at its full data rate.

 

Edit.  In the last case with separate cables, you would need a cable connector installed to bridge the two cables where they meet down in the basement.  Thats a better situation as it avoids any splitter losses.  Here is what the connector looks like.  These should be used to replace all of the connectors throughout the home as they have better frequency performance compared to the builder installed connectors.

 

https://www.lowes.ca/coax-cable/ideal-3-ghz-f-splice-adapter-4-pack_g1200823.html?SearchTerm=85-339

 

Edit 2:  Looking at the MoCA 1.1 spec, there is nothing to indicate that any MoCA 1.1 adapter will absolutely use the higher frequencies, although those frequencies are listed within the spec.  A MoCA 2.0 device would use those higher frequencies.  So, to be on the safe side, if you are going to use a splitter to connect the two RG-6 cables together, buy one that runs from 5 Mhz up to 2400 Mhz. 

 

Just for test purposes, I would connect the primary and secondary adapters together with a short RG-6 cable, run your pc to modem ethernet cable from the modem to the primary adapter ethernet port, and then use a secondary ethernet cable to connect the secondary adapter ethernet port to your pc, in effect using the adapters as a cable bridge, as you would across the house.  Run a speedtest using http://speedcheck.rogers.com/en.html or the www.speedtest.net Toronto Telus server, and compare that to a normal connection where you connect your pc directly to the modem.  That will give you the best results that you could get, considering your internet plan, and give you a basis of comparison when you have the adapters connected across the house.  And, it would let you play with setting this up, and not have to run back and forth across the house to do it.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Edit:  correct the following line to read:  "For the splitter, you would need one that is indicated to run from 5 Mhz to 2 Ghz. Here is one from Lowe's Canada:"

 

This indicated originally 5 Mhz to 1 Ghz, which is in error. 



I'm an Advisor
Posts: 764

Re: MoCA

Hello all,

Suggestion: Try using a Powerline plus second wi-fi router to extend the network into the basement. 

 

Example: My deployment:

BASEMENT: Rogers hitron CGN3ACSMR --> D-Link Powerline adapter ... to GARAGE: D-Link Powerline adapter --> secondary wi-fi router. 

 

Example: Your deployment:
MAIN FLOOR: Rogers hitron CGN3ACSMR --> Powerline adapter ... to BASEMENT: Powerline adapter --> secondary wi-fi router.

 

Secondary wi-fi router: 

- Configured with a static WAN ("Internet") IP address that does not conflict with the DHCP scope on the GCN3ACSMR (by default - use any IP from 192.168.0.3 to 192.168.0.9.

 

- Configured with a LAN IP of 192.168.1.1.

 

- Secondary router can be configured using client connected to it via Ethernet or wireless (use your phone or tablet). 

 

 

While you may not get "max" speeds using this method, the wireless connection strength will be strong and web pages/streaming media will load quicker and more reliably than before. In the summer months, I am able to stream 1080p YouTube videos outside while cleaning the car or doing yard work. 

 

Caveat: The secondary wireless network will have a different network name (SSID). You will need to manually connect to the secondary wireless network if you are using a phone or tablet that moves "out of range" frequently. 

 

Caveat 2: Be aware that deploying an older wireless router as your secondary router can leave you open to security breaches and hacks. If you are going to use this method, consider purchasing a recent - but basic - model.

 

I hope this makes sense and helps you out. If you have any questions, please let us know. 

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 11

Re: MoCA

Thank you for your advice to use prudence and discretion, Vivien.  I wonder what you're referring to when you say "I would be very nervous about running any kind of MoCA gear (especially from the Netgears and D-Links of the world, i.e. companies not renowned for top-quality gear) on coax cable that's also used for Rogers."  It would be helpful to me if you could clarify.

 

Reading DataLink's post, I understand that installing splitters that are within the frequency spectrum that supports MoCA (i.e. minimum 1675 mHZ to 2gHZ) may not produce any potentially harmful signal issues.

 

Please elaborate on your comment "If you have a spare run of coax from the basement to a room, and you want to run MoCA on that, then... great."

 

Finally, exactly what do you mean " potentially moody MoCA gear to the 'live' Rogers cable"?  What gear is or are these?

 

My objective is to explore other options that enable me to eliminate buffering or freezing with video streaming, withoiut resorting to the expensive and non-feasible hard-wired  but reliable ethernet connection.  I don't know if MoCA adapters will do the trick.  What I am experiencing is that Wi-Fi and Powerline just aren't reliable at this time.

 

Thank you for your input.