FTTH (atlantic) Use Switch on ONT?

[sswilson]

I'm switching back to Rogers next week and will be getting FTTH, but am looking for a work-around for the lack of extra high speed ports on the current rogers' modem to power my internal network hardware.

I had initially intended to just leave the rogers' gateway out of the loop and use my Unifi UCG connected directly to the ONT (tv boxes connected to my own APs), but just realized that I need the gateway for the home phone connection.

That started me on the idea of having the rogers gateway downstream from the UGC but with the UCG port set to "DMZ" (I doubt it's called that in the ubiquiti software) in order to pass the rogers gateway through to the public IP, which would probably work for the home phone.

OTOH, I recall seeing something in my travels about business accounts having dual port ONTs which allowed them to connect both the gateway and their own third party router to the public IP and have them work fine.....

Since I won't be getting a business account dual port ONT for my home install, would it be as simple as connecting a 2.5GB switch directly to the ONT and then connecting both the gateway & my personal third party router to the switch? I'm aware that I'd have to block off the extra ports on the switch to make sure nobody accidentally connects directly through to the public IP.

TLDR:

Can I connect a switch directly to the ONT so that I can connect both my rogers gateway, and my third party router to the public address?

*Added Labels*

[Datalink]

@sswilson, personal opinion, I wouldn't leave an ethernet switch sitting out unprotected ahead of the modem or unifi port.  That's just looking for trouble at some point in time. 

I'm not sure that it would actually work.  Traditionally Rogers has allowed two IPv4 addresses to each customers.  Not sure of what Rogers does with IPv6 prefixes, so, given that Rogers uses IPv6 addresses these days, its possible that you wouldn't be able to park a switch ahead of the modem and unifi wan port if Rogers only allows one IPv6 prefix to each customer.  Read that with caution as I'm not sure what the policy is for two IPv6 prefixes per customer, one for the modem and one for the unifi equipment.

The other problem is the number of IP addresses the modem requires to run the modem and the IPTV service.  @-G- would be able to comment on this.  I suspect that if you keep the modem in place, it will take up both IPv4 addresses and IPv6 (?) prefixes, leaving the unifi equipment without an IP address.  What would probably happen is that the equipment would race to accept the IPv4 address and IPv6 prefix, where you might end up with something without an IP address.  Again, hopefully @-G- can add a comment regarding the IP address situation.  

I've seen reports that customers who leave the modem out of the system are able to run the IPTV service without any issues, but, that also begs the question of whether or not they would be able to recognize any issues if they arose.  Comcast designed the Xfinity system to work as a pair, modem and set top box.  The set top box uses a hidden wifi network when necessary to confirm / re-establish tv service, despite an ethernet connection if one was being used.  So, while the system was designed that way, it also poses problems where the set top box doesn't have a good wifi path back to the modem.  I personally wouldn't have a problem running the set top box on its own, thru your own unifi equipment for example.  Try it and see what happens. 

As for the telephone situation, personal opinion, port your existing home phone number out to a voip service.  I think you will find that the monthly voip service cost will be cheaper and you will have greater flexibility in how you handle your inbound and outbound telephone calls.  Rogers doesn't have call control, and there is a growing thread asking / demanding that Rogers run call control in order to avoid the never ending scam calls that Rogers customers receive.  There are no indications that Rogers intends to run call control despite the growing number of requests.  With a voip service, you can probably run your own call control, depending on which voip service you choose to go with, if you decide to go with a voip service.  

To run a voip service you would need to buy an Analogue Telephone Adapter such as the adapters on this amazon page:

Amazon.ca : analog telephone adapter ata

For a single line, you would need something like a Grandstream Handytone 801.  That provides a single telephone line out.  That is an internet connected adapter, internet in/out, Telephone line out.  You can connect that to your existing telephone system, or use it as a single location telephone port, depending on your requirements.  That does require updating and configuration, but, I suspect that if you're running unifi equipment, installing and configuring a telephone adapter shouldn't be an issue.  

So, yes, there is a cost to buying the adapter, but, over the long haul, you should find that a voip service is cheaper and gives you greater flexibility for your telephone system. 

[sswilson]

Yeah, I'm not interested in switching to a VOIP service. I've already got 3 phone numbers in the house. 🙂

I'm probably going to try it to see what happens, worst case it won't work and I'll see if I can have the rogers modem downstream of the UCG in order to enable the phone line and If that doesn't work either, I'll just drop my account to 1G and run my internal network off of the rogers gateway at those speeds.

I'm also going to ask the tech when he's here for the install if one of the two port Nokia ONTs is an option.

[Datalink]

Fwiw, there are telephone adapters (ATAs) that handle more than one line.  Consumer adapters probably go up to 4 telephone lines, perhaps more.  Each telephone line has its own ATA configuration, with its own telephone number.  

One thing that I forgot to mention, look at the possible paths for the fibre cable.  Be involved in this and proactive.  Don't let the tech decide on his / her own as to where he or she wants to run the cable.  You don't want the cable entering the home thru directly thru the wall where it will be completely out of place, and you don't the tech stapling a fibre cable to your hardwood floors or any other surface that would incur an amount of damage due to stapling.  The more work you do ahead of time, the faster the installation will happen and most likely happen to your satisfaction, in terms of where the fibre ONT ends up. 

Unless there has been a change, here are the Nokia ONTs that Rogers uses:

1. NOKIA XS-010X-Q ONT: has a single ethernet port.
Available data rates: 100 M / 1 G / 2.5 G / 5 G / 10 G Base-T interface with RJ-45 connector
Ethernet port auto-negotiation or manual configuration with
Medium Dependent Interface /
Medium Dependent Interface Crossover (MDI/ MDIX)

2. NOKIA XS-020X-A ONT: has two ethernet ports
Available data rates port 1: 1 x 1/2.5GE
Available data rates port 2: 1 x 10 GE

I don't believe that the two port ONT supports dual port usage, but, I could be wrong.  That's a question to ask the tech.  

The XB8 has a selectable input port, coax or ethernet.  So, it might be possible to run the XB8 via ethernet in a DMZ thru the unifi, but, once again, the question arises as to how many IPv4 addresses and IPv6 prefixes the modem uses? Would that configuration work, which is an interesting question.  Won't know until you try it.

[sswilson]

The ONT install will be standard to all of the other services I've had over the last 20 years. Cables come into the basement beside the electrical panel and I've got a wooden panel (used to be a dart board panel) where the ONT will be secured. From there it's just a matter of getting the tech to come up with a long ethernet cable to run loosely along the wall so that I can place the router in a central location. (I've currently got an exceptionally long fiber cable for my bell modem).

[Datalink]

Bell and Rogers use the same fibre drop cable as far as I'm aware.  So, the tech can either run a long fibre drop cable or reuse the Bell fibre cable, depending on whether or not you're dropping the Bell service on the same day or keeping it running for now. 

@sswilson have you ever tried a DMZ thru the Bell modem and if so, did it work?  I'm assuming that you have an HH4000 for your fibre modem. 

[sswilson]

I have (had) a GigaHub (3GB up/down) and have been running it in either DMZ or Advanced DMZ supplying my UCG Max for my internal network (2.5GB up/down). No operational difference between the two other than the advanced DMZ passing through the public IP, while standard DMZ uses the router's IP as the WAN. I've also got a Vlan set up between a 1G port on the Bell modem and a port on the Gateway which allows me to connect the bell STBs to my internal network APs so that Jellyfin can be run off of them and access my NAS.

The lack of a usable high speed port on Rogers' current setup is a major PITA as far as I'm concerned.... my last rogers setup was 1.5G, but that was still docsis cable which left the high speed port open for my internal network, which isn't an option under fiber as the ONT takes up the only high speed port.

IMO, it's almost criminal for rogers to sell >1G plans with their current setup since the only way you'd be able to take advantage of it would be if you had multiple wifi devices moving a ton of data which is for the most part very unlikely.

As far as the Bell and Rogers' fiber drop cable goes.... that's only to the ONT.... in my case I'll need to ditch the long fiber cable I've currently got for a long ethernet cable that will go from the ONT to the rogers' modem.

[Datalink]

Keep in mind that the issue with the lack of high speed ports is due to Comcast's design decisions.  Now, Rogers is testing the next generation modem and router (?) in Calgary.  That test has been going on for months now and there's absolutely no news on the progress or lack of progress of the test.  

Here's a thread created @-G- regarding the new modem and router:

https://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/Internet/Rogers-Xfinity-Router-with-WiFi-7/m-p/546720/highligh...

[sswilson]

I saw that and will be paying close attention.  🙂

I was one of the folks who trialed the XB8 when it was first coming out. (wifi warts and all).

[sswilson · Accepted solution]

Got my hardware in this afternoon and happy to report that using a switch (Unmanaged) seems to have worked. Both the XB8 & my UCG Max have pulled unique IPV4 public addresses and appear to be working as expected. The only fly in the ointment is that the install tech appears to have changed the admin password so I can't log into the router in order to disable wifi (I've connected the stbs to my own APs). It doesn't appear that the Xfinity app gives access to those settings any more.

All I'm using the modem for is the home phone, everything else is being done over my home network hardware connected to the ONT through a switch.

[Datalink]

@sswilson if you run a factory reset on the modem, you can then set the modem up using a direct connection via one of the ethernet ports. 

The user name should be:  Admin

The password is either:  password or the password located on the bottom of the modem. 

You can do a minimal setup including setting the wifi passwords and when that is done, disable the wifi networks.  That won't disable the hidden wifi networks that the modem broadcasts, and which the set top boxes use when required.  So, that requires you to set the modem wifi passphrases to the same passphrases that are currently in use by the UCG Max.

Food for thought is the IP address range for the modem and UCG.  Given that the modem will connect with the set top boxes via the hidden networks, I suspect that both IP ranges should be the same, but, I can see the possibility of an address conflict between the modem and UCG.  So, maybe start with the modem and UCG using different address ranges and see what happens.  Its an interesting question, what will the set top boxes do when the main UCG wifi network and modem have different address ranges?

The set top boxes require IPv6 in order to function correctly.  They will work with IPv4 but, apparently they do require IPv6 in order to run their full functions. 

Rogers uses native IPv6.  Here's a link to a old thread for IPv6 settings:

https://communityforums.rogers.com/t5/Archived-Posts/Rogers-IPv6-Status/m-p/373238/highlight/true#M1...

The modem should be assigned an IPv6 prefix automatically, assuming that Rogers assigns two IPv6 prefixes to customer accounts.  That leaves you to set up the IPv6 settings for the UCG Max.   When that's done, reboot the UCG so that the CMTS assigns an IPV6 prefix to the UCG.  When the reboot is complete, return the IPv6 settings page or the page that shows both IPv4 and IPv6 addresses for the UCG to confirm that yes, the CMTS has assigned an IPv6 prefix to the UCG.  Assuming that this has gone according to plan, reboot the set top boxes.  They should end up with an IPv6 address after the reboot. 

Keep in mind that you're definitely running a non-standard configuration.  If you ever run into problems with the set top boxes and require tech support troubleshooting, you'll have to drop the UCG out of the network and connect the set top boxes to the modem, ie:  make it look like a standard network.  

You have an interesting configuration going.  Please keep posting about it, good, bad or otherwise.  I'm sure that others will be interesting your configuration.

[sswilson]

I'm a little leery to do a factory reset.... IIRC that kills the home phone requiring a call in to get it re-enabled.

So far, I'm working off of info from a trusted source that they've got a friend who's been running the STBs off of IPV4 without issue so I'm going to stick with IPV4 until I start seeing some issues, and if I do, I've got some suggestions for UCG IPV6 settings.

[sswilson]

Update #2:

Took a fit and did a factory reset assuming that I'd have to call in to re-provision the home phone (based on previous experience testing the XB8 before it was released to the consumer market) and am happy to report that my home phone managed to provision correctly without requiring a call into support.

I've now been able to log into the router and disable the main wifi (presumably the "hidden" ones are still running) to remove interference on my internal network Access Points. Everything (except home phone) is now running off of my internal network so all is good with the world.  🙂

Now, if only I could get myrogers to connect the backend data to my account so that I can access my services (I can log in and get billing info, but all information on my services reports back as "something went wrong" so I can't see the services, nor make changes to them online) I'd be a totally happy camper.

Tried the chat function to see if I could get anything done about it but waited 15 minutes for the first representative only to be transferred over to tech support (another 40 minute wait) and then being told by that representative that he'd have to transfer me over to customer support for issues with myrogers (pretty sure it was customer support the first time who transferred me over to tech) at which point I gave up. I'll try it at a later date by phone.

[sswilson]

Quick update on this configuration if anybody sees this thread and wants to try it.....

Doing a manual reboot/factory reset of the modem (from within the modem's menu) works as expected and recovers normally.

OTOH, a network reboot (initiated remotely by tech support) appears to affect the switch's handshake with the ONT so I lost network connectivity on my internal network, and the modem would not provision until I did a power cycle on the switch. Once the switch was power cycled everything (including the modem provisioning) worked as expected.