Change to Email Terms of Sevice

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I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 32

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Does the deadline of May 25 still stand? What if people agree to the terms now and then the terms are changed after the privacy investigation? Will the new terms be applied to them? I've now created new email accounts with other providers, but haven't yet deleted my Rogers email accounts, in case this mess is somehow resolved. But doubt that will happen before May 25.

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 261

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

I have also moved to a new email account.  However, I'm still keeping my Rogers account open, as there are things I still want to receive, but can't change the email address for. 

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 24

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

@unun4848

From what I last read, the date still stands. 

 

I too changed my email and keeping my rogers.com for now. I’m still getting newsletters and such and either unsubscribing or joining the ones I want to keep and redirecting to my new addy.

I am also using it to correspond on this issue and do not wish to give my new email out. It will be restricted to a few. It was suggested by someone here to not get rid of the email address but keep it dormant, set to holiday mode. Yahoo apparently recycles the old ones and a hacker could use it.  

 

My biggest problem with this new policy is, if someone contacts me using an email service that is owned by the Oath corporation, then no matter what precautions I have taken, my data will still be up for grabs.

They state that they will keep in and outgoing emails on their servers from customers using AOL, Yahoo, and other services they own. This is going international, no matter the law in individual countries. Still and invasion of privacy without my consent. My reply to an email should be kept confidential between the sender and myself. 

I will have to delete or block all contacts tied to Oath. From my understanding, once I respond to an email, they will be able to scan and store.

If someone knows if this is accurate, please let me know.

 

This has been so stressful and I hope to see the end of it soon.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,091

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

I have been actively paying attention to the popups of web sites that say I have to accept their use of cookies and decide, was that information that important.

 

There are also associations like DAA - their app for all browser add ons - Protect my Choices - it allows you to opt out all trackers of companies who have signed on with them.  There are also apps out there that will tell you what trackers are activated, and allow you to block them.

 

Tends to slow the loading of web pages, and in some cases, you may not be able to use all features, so you decide.

 

Also, Firefox just came out with Firefox Pulse which will tell you what tracking cookies are making attempts to be installed, and you can block them all by default, then allow on some web sites.  Firefox has this feature built into its web browser too.

 

Rogers site has 23 altogether, the forum has 6.

 

I have also seen the variations of the concept of clear and transparent out there.

 

Unlike Yahoo/Oath, where you have to dig and dig to find things - and you will eventually find them, and Rogers did give the common links to get there after we demanded them, because on you own, you would be hard pressed to easily find them.

 

I have a subscription to a meditation newsletter and site that sends me things each day for interest and thought.

 

A new privacy policy came up today.

 

Now this was easy.  Said, before agreeing to the policy - there was a button at the bottom, go to this link - it listed the 4 types of cookies that are used - only four of them - 1 for essential, but if you block it, it still runs fine, 1 for add preferences - I blocked that one - I can ignore adds when they aren't focussed to my interests, and I don't want companies guessing at my interests, or behaviourally and subliminally pushing me in one direction or the other.

 

And that is not paranoia. I did my undergraduate degree in psychology of education and learning and one of the things we did in one of my courses, was getting one side of the room to respond and ask questions more, just by how the professor attended to the group, and then switched it around.  Most of us responded as we had been designed to just by his attention and using our names, and things like before I take the question from this person, I will take from that person (they were on the desired side of the room).

 

He then explained how he had done it.  So just because I looked at how to fix my railings, I don't want ads from Home hardware in my area for railing repair and replacement.

 

I will go to the stores thank you, or directly to their website when I choose to go looking.

 

 But back to the site, I choose to not accept any of the 4 choices, and it then popped up and told me the impact (my ads were not personalized, and the essential one may impact the performance of the site - generally, I am finding that it slows the loading a bit - seconds usually)  I can live with that. Chat didn't work on MyRogers, but that is ok, I prefer to talk to humans face to face, it is just the way my brain works best. I use chat only to get a full transcript of the discussion and final offers as quoted earlier.

 

So this site for my newsletter, easily found all options for personal choices, and then you could click accept.

 

So in effect they were allowing me to opt in or out as I choose - yes they were set to opt in, but the first page sent me to the choices, no reading, digging, etc, to do that.

 

This is clear and transparent.

 

So now none of my sites ever access google analytics, adobe analytics, adobe and google tag managers, amongst many of the other most common ones.

 

So, I thank everyone for catching what Yahoo/Oath tried to do, and I thank Rogers for being sublimely ignorant of any responsiblity.  Another one I saw, I tried to click on the netfix on my bill, and they now pop up a clear extraction from the terms, that all they are doing is providing billing through Rogers, that everything we do with Netflix they have nothing to do with.  So if we get billed wrong on the bill, I guess we go directly to Netflix.  Even my bank credit card now forces me to work first with the company, and then they will investigate and reverse if resolution is not met.  They used to just take your word. 

 

So Yahoo/Oath, and email, messenger, and other things that once were Rogers, are now clearly our responsibility with Oath, the new business model that slid in over time in the terms, but now the terms have to be much clearer, although both Rogers and Oath choose not to be overly clear and transparent, in the simplest terms over the years.  And Oath tried to stretch the limits beyond believability when it came to our contacts information, or my information in a rogers branded email domain address, managed totally by Oath, Rogers just gave Oath the knowledge through the member's centre that as Rogers customers, Yahoo would provide us 9 addresses through.

 

But interesting thing remains, is that to change primary accounts and delete the last email, you have to contact Rogers, so how do they say they have no responsibility or role.  Where are the clear terms related to the member centre.

 

Doesn't matter to me, I don't have a Rogers email address anymore and I don't go near Yahoo services. And I still use a private account for those on Rogers named email and encourage them to get off them.  I advise them I will give them time, but I have asked them to delete all messages from the past, and to not keep my contact information in Yahoo.

 

So one thing it has taught me is read those terms closely, and if they make it difficult, I opt out the site - I am not digging for an understanding of terms, or contacting them to explain - honourable companies make it very clear and easy to deal with and right up front your options, something that Rogers with Yahoo did not do.

 

Rogers actually does not give out options, but they do direct you to the Your ad choices website - you can opt out of 100's of companies that have agreed to be part of the initiative.  It is an add-on to your browser - so Rogers does not actually give you a direct way to opt out these ads, we have to do it at the digital advertising alliance of Canada - most, but not all of the cookies used by Rogers are covered by this initiative.  Note that this is browser specific and device specific, so you have to do it on all - there are apps from DAAC to make your choice more permanent, but if you delete your cookies, you start all over again.

 

The main Rogers site by the way has 17 cookies - 5 Advertising specific trackers for personalizing and also seeing what you click on and look for on the site,

 

Tapad which creates graphs across thousands of devices and interconnects information from all your devices and browsers into a simple graphical view for the company of consumer activity.

 

Most common one we all have heard over the years is double-click

 

One customer interaction cookie which is what drives the chat tools.

 

It does this

  • Active browser sharing w/ form fill
  • Agent efficiency
  • Chat
  • Deploy across unlimited domains
  • Email management
  • Integrated SMS
  • Integrated workspace
  • Live chat
  • Mobile engagement
  • Passive browsing sharing
  • Reporting engine and scheduler
  • SMS management
  • Supervisor dashboard
  • Twitter management
  • Web-based chat reporting

So it looking at and providing the chat tools, but also managing the tracking of us and the CSR on the other end - not just watching us, but also them.  Hope they are using that data to look at wait time, and educating those chat people how to be more efficient at understanding us and providing what we ask for, not just script managed behaviour.

 

Adobe Tag manager is considered essential - all I have found is that it slows the site a bit - essential for who - looking at the web site, it helps to measure the efficiency of their web systems, how much lag, errors, etc.  But it also ties into Adobe analytics that helps to target that maketing tool, but if you have that blocked, then the tag is useless for that function - Google analytics is also a key one, with tags too, but you can leave the tags running if you want, and analytics off.

 

It is all framed as "Adobe is one part of an ecosystem of technologies that marketers rely on to deliver the customer experience. "

 

Remember here that the customer first here is the web site owner, not us - it is evaluating how well it provides the desired experience that the web site owner wants us to experience, including adds, whether we access their presentations, which pages, clicks for more information, how we use the site, etc.  This could be very beneficial information in designing user friendly web interfaces, but good luck asking Rogers or anyone else, what they use the data from tags and analytics for in "improving their customer experience on the web site".

 

Site analytics is also the next set - which are things like google analytics, clicktale, and qualtrics - the last one drives the surveys, but also can be linked to data coming from the other sources for a full close look.

 

The last one is Social Media links - those are the shares and permanent links to share something to Facebook in this case, but could include Twitter - those are the two most common - by the way, if you use chat, twitter, facebook or the forum, it is all being fed to the same analytics and tag systems.

 

Take a look at the various sites and see what they do for a business.  I am more concious now about knowing who is tracking me and their are tools at the moment to block them all.

 

Ahh this wonderful new world.

 

And thanks to the EUU, the customers of Rogers on this site and the media, and our legislative commissions for providing education and also getting that one very flagrant attempt at grabbing information from our contacts taken out.  No acknowledgement that it may have been wrong by anyone, just don't see a need for it, and they weren't ready to implement anyway - if they decide how to implement, will it show up again.

 

At least this massive data gathering system, designed to evaluate our behaviour and manipulate it in the direction that companies want.  I can live with making their own operations more efficient - for example, how many clicks does it take to get to the privacy statements, how efficient are chats, and I am even ok with them analyzing my concerns if it leads to improved customer service.  Just don't target me for behavioural change without giving me a choice.   Years ago as students, we weren't please when we learned that we were part of a social experiment, but it was a powerful one that taught us of how choice can be extremely manipulated without our knowing it.  By the way, even when you know, a professor can do it again and that was shown to us - it was a course on choice and human behaviour - it was shown to us numerous times over the course, but we were taught to think about our choices (to put up our hand or not - to talk longer or shorter, and others), and that as soon as we thought we were being manipulated, we exposed it so that all were aware.

 

The power from the experiment is how subtly the person can analyze the characteristics and personalities of the people in the room and then how best to decide what behaviours to change.  We are creating thousands of pieces of information on us everytime we are buying, looking, searching, talking on Facebook, and even in these chats that can be used.

 

And as we have seen, there are no shortage of companies out there that are willing to manipulate behaviour well beyond the product they are selling.

 

A brave new world.

 

Bruce

 

 

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I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,091

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

This is an important FYI on the GDRP standards from EU that resulted in the changes in privacy for all companies.

 

It is an important read, and emphasizes, do read each of the notices that you get from web sites and services very closely - as the article says, many companies are trying to slip in ways to get you to agree to give them consent to use their information on the assumption that most people don't read these.

 

I recently had a company I know advise in their blog not to worry about these advices, nothing to worry about, don't bother to read them.

 

I will disuss it with them when I have a chance.

 

Could you just ignore - imagine if we had all ignored the Oath pop-up and hidden elements that impacted security in Canada - they would today have permission to access Rogers yahoo email accounts and other yahoo services to use our contacts personal information to contact them to solicit services acting on our permission and on our behalf.

 

The article emphasizes that the companies are still using those popups at the bottom of your page that if you close it and use the site, you are giving them access, for that matter if you close and don't use the site, you still have given them consent.  On those pop ups, you will find a link to their privacy, look for the opt out options that are mandatory for all sites accessing EU, and in this world, what company doesn't have access with the EU.

 

So do read them and make an educated choice - as I mentioned, recall what Yahoo tried to slip by us, and if there is one thing I have learned, all companies, not just Rogers use the practice that if they refer you to another service, they are not responsible for anything over there.  Hopefully our legilative framework will place some responsbility on companies who provide a direct referal and reference to our relationship in their subcontracting to provide Yahoo access to the knowledge that we are Rogers customers.

 

I have learned a lot about the real world of the Internet - I always suspected, but now we know much more clearly, but it is up to us to make our choices and to read those - fortunately, most companies I have gone to follow the requirements of the GDRP principles well and make opt out easy to find, unlike Yahoo that you require links or a road map that we didn't get from Rogers until they were pushed.  It was not their iniative, it was our pressure, or to be generous, just waiting until closer to the 25th.  We are in that new world now.

 

On a related topic, I am using Ghostery add on and browser on Android as it highlights exactly what cookie and trackers are coming with the access, and you can block them.

The GDRP states that all cookies that are not essential to the operation of the page  - example the cookie that allows for chat to work, or the like feature on here must permit for opt out, but some companies are slipping multiple functions into the same cookie that provides essential functionality, but also slips in marketing analytics and tracking.

 

These ones you need to decide whether you want to just not use the site functionality, or do you want to give up some of our opt out rights under GDRP. Some functionality I have opted out of completely on some sites.  I permit only two cookies from Rogers, one that allows for Chat, and one that allows for the Like feature on the forum.

 

And as a final note, even Ghostery who is very transparent and attempting to live up to the highest level of standards of protection makes mistakes.

 

Now here is an email to their users that is very transparent - by the way, in Canada, companies are required by law to report breaches now.  The recent report by banks today, the analyst said they way the balance of putting out information based upon benefit and potential impact on consumer or possible knowledge of events that don't efect them -They have to advise impacted users, but they don't have to tell every one, but if they advise a number of people, it will almost always go public.

 

Here is Ghostery's very transparent report of the recent breach due to an honest technical error on their part - don't often see this level of transparency and honesty.

 

An interesting thing is that when you go to their site, if you have a don't track message sent to sites by your browser, most companies actually have in their policies that they ignore those requests - it is only required that they follow it in one jurisdiction (california I think).  It pops up a message and advises that you don't permit tracking based upon your browser.  They don't actually collect any personal information, period.

 

Here is their link on how to understand your options under GDRP no matter whether you are in EU or not.

 

https://cliqz.com/en/magazine/how-to-gdpr-yourself

 

Also, note that from what I can find, Rogers provides no opt out option for the following use of information.

 

Our websites may use cookies to deliver content specific to your interests,
 

I use Ghostery to identify those cookies, and opt out of all but one.

Rogers uses 11 advertising cookies, 1 customer interaction (chat - necessary for chats to work), 2 identified essential - I turn them off - i Have had no issues with having them off.

2 site analytics - qualitrics is necessary for like and other interactions on chat,

and social media interactions buttons 1 only.

 

Many of these Rogers directs you to DAA, browser and mobile tools for opting out of some of the trackers being used, companies that agree to be part of DAA, like google and Adobe analytics.  But not all the cookies are covered under that, so Rogers is relying on DAA and being a member with them and the related companies for our opt out rather than building an opt out tool.  Ghostery allows you go make your full choices.

 

Since Rogers services are not outside Canada and not in EU, the GDRP is not mandatory on Rogers, but you can use the link above to allow you to apply those principles to companies not under the EU policies.

 

Here is to safe Internet usage.

 

My thanks to everyone who caught and reported the practices of Rogers and Oath and for making this a public and legislative issue to be pursued - we await the commission decisions.

 

Indirectly I thank Oath for trying to pull a fast one, the wisdom of many caught it and I am now much more educated on my privacy in this brave new world, of corporate big brother for their economic benefit.  Notice how many ads are on Facebook now - I don't click hide because I have their cookies blocked, and don't want to provide them any potential information, I just ignore them.

 

Bruce

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