Change to Email Terms of Sevice

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I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 17

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice


@rharding0wrote:
Excellent story in the Globe last night by Christine Dobby. She updated her previous story sfter speaking to the Canadian Privacy Commisioners office and Rogers CEO, Joe Natale.

Sounds like Oath is definitely violating the law as far as the permissions we have to give so they can mine contact info and send them advertising using your own email address. The Rogers CEO wasn't as meek as his spokespeople yesterday, he was actually quite forceful about how seriously they take customers privacy. Guess we'll have to wait and see, but we're definitely having an impact.

Here's a link to the updated Globe story by Christine Dobby. She deserves all our thanks for getting this out in the open so quickly.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-rogers-terms-of-service-asks-e-mail-users-to-share-...

The Globe article is in my assessment excellent, accurate, thoughtful, well-supported by qualified legal opinion. This should be required reading for every Rogers customer before they accept the Oath terms, and perhaps should be pinned at the top of this thread.

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 17

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice


@LLBwrote:

Starting to wonder if Rogers is working towards dropping the rogers email service entirely.

 

Might explain why they decline to give numbers on how many active roger emails there are.

 

First issue:

"We encourage customers who have any concerns to adjust their customer preferences and settings in their Yahoo account.”"

 

It bears repeating that you must first agree to all of the T&C's in order to access your account.  Changing preferences and settings does not change the terms and conditions under which you make use of Oath products and services nor do they change the data set that Oath collects from you.  Settings and preferences change slightly (and only as long as Oath allows) the way Oath sends you data.

 

Second issue

"you can't have it both ways."

 

Rogers (@home) sold me internet service which was accompanied by up to 9 email accounts.  You paid for a higher level of service to get more email accounts.    Now rogers SELLS as part of its internet packages additional features such as 9 EMAIL ACCOUNTS.  Did we buy email accounts directly from Yahoo? No!  We bought them from Rogers.  Who Rogers SUBCONTRACTS the provision of this service is immaterial to us as clients.  My PRIME contractor is Rogers.   Just as I don't care who shows up at my door to install or repair a rogers service (a Rogers employee or a Rogers subcontractor), I don't care who rogers uses for Rogers email service.  We pay rogers not Yahoo and not Oath.

 

Third

 

If Rogers no longer provides email service then I should receive compensation on my monthly bill.  Rogers should also explain specific methods to remove any link or association of roger/yahoo email accounts from my Rogers account.

 

I've gone from being perturbed at the laziness of rogers and the sleaziness of Oath to downright being pi***d about this.

 


I have the same reactions to all of this... agree very strongly... and similarly getting very angry about this, partly because it is a colossal distraction and waste of my time that, particularly in the "enlightened" post-"Facebook/Cambridge Analytica" era, should never have been allowed to get this far. 
 

I was annoyed to reveive a response from the Rogers Privacy Office, to my formal complaint, essentially telling me to take my concerns directly to Yahoo/Oath. My reply to them closely matches LLB's assertions above:

 

My contract is with Rogers, not Yahoo or Oath. I  am PAYING Rogers for my email service as an essential element of my Rogers Internet Service Package. It is UNACCEPTABE for Rogers to allow OATH to encumber my Rogers email services with Terms of Service [TOS] which are even more invasive of my privacy and the privacy of my contacts than the recent actions of Facebook & Cambridge Analytica, and far more invasive and disrespectful of my privacy rights than the current Rogers TOS. It is UNACCEPTABLE for Rogers to instruct me to take my questions and concerns directly to Oath: I have no contract with Oath. Oath is essentially a subcontractor to Rogers as regards my interests in these matters. Rogers should be acting to protect the interests of its customers. Rogers should be ensuring that the services it subcontracts live up to Rogers' privacy protection values and promises to its customers. If Oath cannot meet these expectations, Rogers should find another subcontractor, or provide the services directly in-house. I cannot "take my business elsewhere" if I am unable to accept Oath's TOS, because I do not have the power or authority nor technical means to move my "___@rogers.com" email accounts to a different service provider. Therefore I, as a Rogers customer, should not be required to accept Oath TOS for services which Rogers has contracted to provide to me in its Internet Package. I am a Rogers internet customer since the era when Rogers provided email services directly in house. If at Rogers' initiative I now access those services through a Rogers Portal to a Rogers subcontractor, that does not diminish Roger's obligations to me. A unilateral, material change to Terms of Service which includes conditions I cannot legally agree to amounts to a breach of Rogers' contract with me, if I am refused access to my Rogers email services because I cannot legally agree to the Canadian version of the Oath TOS.

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 17

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice


@dlforkeswrote:

@did I did just read "Rogers email service is optional"? What the heck does that mean? Any service is optional, in the sense that you can pay for it, and then not use it. Or do they mean you can use it and not pay for it (i.e. it is available to non-Rogers customers). Fair enough - if I cancel my Rogers Internet subscription, can I keep and manage my nine @rogers.com email accounts? If so, then what service, if any, is Rogers providing? And if not, in what sense is Rogers email service optional?


Bravo !  Very well put.

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 17

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice


@edandannewrote:

Last Saturday I believe, I posted about being able to get into Rogers Homepage without the offensive "OATH" page coming up.  I have been on the web half a dozen times since then and up until now "Oath" is still missing on my Rogers page.

Anyone else having the same experience?


I am heavily using multiple ___@rogers accounts, daily webmail. I am still getting those pop-up reminders to accept the Oath terms  -- sporadically,  but I am still getting them on all my accounts. I'm not sure if it's a cycle based on login-count or some other metric but the "Oath page" is still coming back eventually. For those who may not know, simply scroll down the terms in the pop-up until a "do later" link appear and click that.

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 8

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

I'm agreeing with everyone who views this as a betrayal by Rogers. I wonder if Mr. Natale would use his own service to, for example, receive correspondence from the CRA about his taxes. Would he want foreigners to be privy to this information? I suspect not - so why should we agree?

 

The preference settings in the Yahoo account management are totally inadequate to protect our privacy.

 

I have my own domain though a Canadian company with servers in Canada (the company is Sibername, and it's not as expensive as you'd think, BTW), and am switching my email over to that account, which I control. Yes, Rogers still provides the pipe, but that will be all. I don't think I can trust them any more after this!

 

Interesting question from @thePhipp about whether Rogers is thinking about dumping email entirely. That would be a very bad move - virtually every ISP includes email in its services. Once people have bought Internet services, they expect email as part of the package. I would expect that the email I pay for through my ISP would be more secure and private than a freebie from a provider whose payment is my personal info. If they do it correctly, a Rogers email address could be a good thing, indicating that the ISP is taking care of its customers, not selling them to a foreign company. Sadly, so far they're not doing very well.

 

Comic relief: a year or so ago, my Rogers Internet, TV, and home phone all quit working because of a botch-up in their admin department (a support person had disabled the wrong street number when someone was moving). The support person I spoke to tried to upsell me to cellular service as well, to which I responded, "if I didn't have someone else's cellular, I wouldn't have been able to report the outage". Guess who's never getting to be my sole supplier!

 

I am so disappointed in Rogers right now! They know better, and can do better, if they'd bother to try.

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 17

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice


@bibbinutwrote:

 

...

We Rogers customers don't want this!

Some Rogers agents I spoke with today do not want it either.

And I'm not accepting any lame excuses from Rogers either.

Either they fix it. NOW. or I'll take all of my services elsewhere with another company that doesn't sell and respects my private information and I'm certain other customers will do the same thing.

ROGERS WAKE UP AND SMELL THE COFFEE.

YOU'RE A BIG ENOUGH COMPANY TO HAVE YOUR OWN EMAIL SERVICE.

DUH.

 

 

 

 


I couldn't agree more.

However, Rogers shut down their in-house email and moved Rogers customers to Yahoo years ago for financial reasons. The cost savings were possible because, even back then, Yahoo was mining our data, so Rogers got a good deal in the outsource. I think that to some extent the new Oath TOS are about getting our permission (by holding our email accounts hostage) to a formalization of stuff they have been doing without our permission all along... and the impetus here is indeed the new European laws. Looking at previous TOS versions, there's scary, totally unacceptable stuff in the new Oath TOS that did not appear in older TOS, but that does not mean they (Yahoo in this case) weren't quietly doing (some of) that stuff all along. It's just that, with the new privacy protection laws (and big penalties for violations) they can't take the chance of getting caught anymore. They're not stealing anything from you if they can trick or coerce you into giving it to them...

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 17

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice


@Zaphod64wrote:

I just spoke with the Rogers Management Office and their comments are consistent with those discussed here and in the media. Specifically:

- this is a decision from Yahoo and Rogers cannot do anything about it

- I can provide feedback directly to Yahoo/Oath

- Yahoo is a free complimentary service and Rogers does not own Yahoo

- Rogers does not have access to the content of Yahoo emails

- Yahoo/Oath has made their terms more transparent

 

 


Everyone is getting the same scripted response from Rogers Mgmt Office. It has been cleverly crafted and the same message almost verbatim is being given out by the people at rogers tech support etc. 

We need to argue this point with them at every opportunity. 

Yes this is a Yahoo/Oath decision but it's not @true that Rogers cannot do anything about it. Rogers owns the rogers.com domain and fundamentally controls the use of rogers.com for all @rogers.com email addresses and where they are hosted and Rogers absolutely CAN -- and should -- move those email addresses in-house to its own servers or to another outsourced provider whose TOS are acceptable under Canadian law and Canadian sensibilities. Period. And of course the "emails at Yahoo" might be somehow optional but the package of 7 or 9 @rogers email addresses are sold and promoted as an inherent feature of the Rogers "Internet Package", have real and tangible value to Rogers customers, and are NOT free since the Rogers Internet package would be of reduced value without them. In my contract with Rogers, Rogers undertook and agreed to provide email services. Period.

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 33

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice


@thePhippwrote:

@Zaphod64wrote:

I just spoke with the Rogers Management Office and their comments are consistent with those discussed here and in the media. Specifically:

- this is a decision from Yahoo and Rogers cannot do anything about it

- I can provide feedback directly to Yahoo/Oath

- Yahoo is a free complimentary service and Rogers does not own Yahoo

- Rogers does not have access to the content of Yahoo emails

- Yahoo/Oath has made their terms more transparent

 

 


Everyone is getting the same scripted response from Rogers Mgmt Office. It has been cleverly crafted and the same message almost verbatim is being given out by the people at rogers tech support etc. 

We need to argue this point with them at every opportunity. 

Yes this is a Yahoo/Oath decision but it's not @true that Rogers cannot do anything about it. Rogers owns the rogers.com domain and fundamentally controls the use of rogers.com for all @rogers.com email addresses and where they are hosted and Rogers absolutely CAN -- and should -- move those email addresses in-house to its own servers or to another outsourced provider whose TOS are acceptable under Canadian law and Canadian sensibilities. Period. And of course the "emails at Yahoo" might be somehow optional but the package of 7 or 9 @rogers email addresses are sold and promoted as an inherent feature of the Rogers "Internet Package", have real and tangible value to Rogers customers, and are NOT free since the Rogers Internet package would be of reduced value without them. In my contract with Rogers, Rogers undertook and agreed to provide email services. Period.


@thePhipp

!00% correct and well said!.

"The package of 7or 9 @rogers email addresses are sold and promoted as a key feature of the Roger "Internet Package"

This has been in place for many, many years. I know this to be FACT being a former Rogers agent myself and as a Rogers customer.

Spoke at length again with a Yahoo email tech support manager and he verified this. Yahoo has no access to our rogers.com email accounts in any capacity whatsoever. They just host them on the Yahoo email servers at the moment.

Rogers owns those rogers.com email addresses and Rogers agents and customers who have Rogers internet service pay for them with their Rogers Internet Package. FACT.

And to reiterate again those aforementioned rogers.com emails are NOT free nor complimentary. They never ever were.

 

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 33

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice


@thePhippwrote:

@edandannewrote:

Last Saturday I believe, I posted about being able to get into Rogers Homepage without the offensive "OATH" page coming up.  I have been on the web half a dozen times since then and up until now "Oath" is still missing on my Rogers page.

Anyone else having the same experience?


I am heavily using multiple ___@rogers accounts, daily webmail. I am still getting those pop-up reminders to accept the Oath terms  -- sporadically,  but I am still getting them on all my accounts. I'm not sure if it's a cycle based on login-count or some other metric but the "Oath page" is still coming back eventually. For those who may not know, simply scroll down the terms in the pop-up until a "do later" link appear and click that.


I'm doing the same thing. I am not accepting the Oath TOS for my rogers.com email accounts.

I keep on clicking on "I'll do it later"

Highlighted
I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 33

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

@LynnGr

"Interesting question from @thePhipp about whether Rogers is thinking about dumping email entirely. That would be a very bad move - virtually every ISP includes email in its services. Once people have bought Internet services, they expect email as part of the package. I would expect that the email I pay for through my ISP would be more secure and private than a freebie from a provider whose payment is my personal info. If they do it correctly, a Rogers email address could be a good thing, indicating that the ISP is taking care of its customers, not selling them to a foreign company. Sadly, so far they're not doing very well."

Am thinking the same thing!

Frankly it would be a very, very stupid move of Rogers to dump email services.

Never ever heard of any ISP not having email for their customers.  That really makes me scratch my head in wonder!

Rogers has subcontracted our rogers.com email addresses to Yahoo, which is now called Oath and owned by a different company. So Rogers can easily end that sub contract since it's not the same corporate entity.

It's time for Rogers to host our email addresses on their own email servers (as I have mentioned many times) or have a partnership with a company that honours and respects Canadian privacy laws.