Change to Email Terms of Sevice

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I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,153

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

@Zaphod64

 

Yes, I got the same email, forwarded from my rogers/yahoo account and was in my spam.

I recall looking at it way back when Rogers dumped their provision of web sites for users, and when they moved to Yahoo.  I guess I created an account at some point to look at it, but I never used it.  I cancelled it.  I decided to look at the other services they offer - turned out I had a tumblr account, accessable via the Rogers member centre - both of them - I had to get the email sent to me for the tumblr account, it was different than the mail account, and there it was, empty, except for my picture and a title called Bruce's ramblings (Now I ramble here instead Smiley Happy).  I deleted that account too.  Didn't find any other accounts floating around in that search. 

 

So do check all their services - you may find some surprises.

 

Oh and in terms of changing settings - I went in via the links in the FAQ and to my surprise, they were all set as approved by me - I had gone hunting the last few days and found the same links via their privacy options section on the policy page, and restricted everything possible.  But when I followed the links that the FAQ mentioned in my last post above - they were back to the old settings - guess they didn't take hold yet????

 

And I am supposed to trust that my privacy is protected.  Similiar to my comment of how my rogers email address got used to contact me when I have removed any reference of it from Rogers settings and preferences.  My head is still spinning, but I felt I would update you on where I am.

 

I will give it a few days, and I won't be going to Ombudsman, I will be going straight to CCTC and privacy commissioner.

 

As I have said before, what a fine mess you have put me in!!

 

Thanks Oath and Rogers - I am leaning towards thinking that Oath tried to pull a fast one on Rogers and Canadian law and they found out that many of us are fairly educated and knowledgable of our rights.

 

Oh and last point, I got a new policy statment from Twitter and from Strada - both speak of more clear and transparent - did some digging, that is coming from the EU requirements.

 

But note how the clear and transparent it was for Canadians and Rogers users of email - we had to dig and dig, talk and talk, ask lots of questions.  Rogers own terms and policies are similiar with some limited clarity on our product terms as required by the CRTC, but I figure that any company that has to write terms as long as some of these companies do not really intend us to easily understand what is being said,  if you have to go past the clear and transparent summary to pages and pages of information, I don't consider that to be clear and transparent

 

- the comment about comparing terms of Mozilla shows you what clear and transparent looks like - all of one page, in large text, with links to each of their products - yes they do similiar with our interests and use analytics to provide web snippits below the search engine entry box, and even link you to their analytics company privacy policy, but very easy to understand

 

- same for Proton - they don't even need a long privacy statement - here it is -

 

"

We are scientists, engineers, and developers drawn together by a shared vision of protecting civil liberties online. This is why we created ProtonMail, an easy to use secure email service with built-in end-to-end encryption and state of the art security features. Our goal is to build an internet that respects privacy and is secure against cyberattacks.

We are committed to developing and widely distributing the tools necessary to protect your data online. Our team combines deep mathematical and technical knowledge from the world's top research institutions with expertise in building easy to use user interfaces. Together, we are building the encrypted communication technologies of the future."

 

End-to-End Encryption Messages are encrypted at all times

Messages are stored on ProtonMail servers in encrypted format. They are also transmitted in encrypted format between our servers and user devices. Messages between ProtonMail users are also transmitted in encrypted form within our secure server network. Because data is encrypted at all steps, the risk of message interception is largely eliminated.

 

Zero Access to User Data Your encrypted data is not accessible to us

ProtonMail's zero access architecture means that your data is encrypted in a way that makes it inaccessible to us. Data is encrypted on the client side using an encryption key that we do not have access to. This means we don't have the technical ability to decrypt your messages, and as a result, we are unable to hand your data over to third parties. With ProtonMail, privacy isn't just a promise, it is mathematically ensured. For this reason, we are also unable to do data recovery. If you forget your password, we cannot recover your data.

 

That is it - think I am going the full package and pay for my privacy - means I will reduce my services with Rogers in some manner - and I will also be looking at DuckDuckGo - they don't have a policy except for this statement - DuckDuckGo does not collect or share personal information. That is our privacy policy in a nutshell. The rest of this page tries to explain why you should care.  They have restrictions to prevent what they call leakage to other sites, but they are turned on by default, you don't have to opt out, you have to opt in.

 

And finally, when I tried to set duckduckgo as my search engine, I use Firefox, and they advised me the following "

These browser permissions are used to add privacy protection on websites you visit by blocking hidden trackers, encrypting connections where possible, and by making DuckDuckGo your default search engine.

As per our privacy policy, we do not collect or share any personal information ourselves. All of this privacy protection happens on your device."

 

 

 

Bruce

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I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 27

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

@BS

 

Thanks so much for this update on the comments you received from the OOP. Greatly appreciated.

 

I find it interesting that in the responses to the most commonly asked questions it is stated, as you note, that if you do not accept the new terms you will be reminded regularly to accept them but will in the meantime be subject to old existing terms.  I wonder if this comment is only relevant up to 25 May or is it also applicable afterwards - I am not sure.  How long will "the meantime" last? 

 

The Oath Terms of Service includes the comment - "For Oath products or services that are accessed without signing into an account, the Terms below apply to those products and services starting May 25, 2018". I presume accessing our email (regardless of how we access) is a service that is accessed with signing into an account and thus this provision is not applicable.  In the email we received from Yahoo last week however there is the more concerning comment - "Please note that although our services will continue to be available under the existing terms for now, you will eventually need to agree to the new Terms of Service and Privacy Policy in order to continue to use our services.  I am wondering if "for now" (perhaps like "meantime" noted above) refers to an indeterminable period of time that could end on 25 May, could be six months from now, a year, etc.  I guess at the very least we may have bought ourselves some time but I don't want to get a notification six months from now saying I have one day left to agree to the new terms or I will lose email access forever - that would not provide much time to get a new email provider and update my friends and contacts.

 

Also regarding how "You will be regularly reminded about the need to accept the new terms".  If you access your email through the Yahoo email web portal you will get the reminders we are usually getting these days (I say usually as it seems this week I only sometimes get the screen asking me to agree to the new terms).  But how will I be reminded regularly if I access my email through Outlook - will I get regular emails like the one I received last week from Yahoo? I can simply ignore those emails - they do not currently have any impact on my access to my emails.

 

 

 

If the reference to friends and contacts does end up getting struck from all parts of the policies - including https://policies.oath.com/ (Which I note I never seem to have seen a link directly to.  All links in emails and other policies seem to refer to https://policies.oath.com/ca/en/oath/terms/otos/index.html which has the friends/contacts provision deleted.) The optimist in me says the inclusion on the https://policies.oath.com/  is an error that will soon be corrected and that matter will soon be resolved. I have still referenced https://policies.oath.com/  in my communications today with the Office of the President and the Privacy Office. 

 

Putting aside the issue of whether the Rogers email accounts are "free" - which, for the record, I agree with the people on this forum they are not free, they are an optional feature included in the overall price of our Internet services-  does this only leave the "scanning/analyzing of emails and attachments" matter as the last significant matter unresolved. And this issue is not a Canada specific issue and so Oath is getting a lot of bad press on the issue in the US - which helps us as well.  If we can now opt out of the targeted advertising to us from the scan/analyzing of our email (and opt out without having to first agree to the new terms - I have not been successful at this yet), then do you think this would mean our emails would only be scanned for the typical reasons of scam, security, etc. as they are now and not scanned for targeted advertising purposes as under the new policy (without opting out) - or am I being too naïve? 

 

Thank you to everybody for calling, emailing Rogers, etc. on this issue - I am slightly more optimistic that this issue may be resolved soon. 

 

If I do not hear back from the Office of the President or the Privacy Office by the end of the week I will contact The Ombudsperson. I am getting as tired of this as I am sure all of you are.

 

 

I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,153

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

@Zaphod64  Great input on my post - I agree fully - out of steam.

 

And yes, I am tired of it, that is why I said I was taking a break, but then I got the message back from OOP, so ended up back here.  Maybe that is what Oath and other related companies that try this out are hoping - that we will all get tired of it and it will all go away and they will go back to old methods.

 

Me, my own decision is made - I'm out of the Rogers email business - just have to click delete, then they have 90 days of no information on blank accounts, although it may be in backup logs.  I will make my decision to opt out of the "optional service" completely, not just some of the options of tracking and will be closely reading terms from now on and being aware of what I am agreeing to.  And I say like everyone else, just for good cause - if it is free and not part of our services with Rogers, and optional as they claim, then make it clearer in their marketing and product offers of that reality and advise us that we have to agree to Oath's privacy policy and that Rogers policies have nothing to do with the email service - they only provide the confirmation that we are Rogers customers, which in effect is what based upon what has been said is all that the member centre's main function is.

 

But curious though - since I log into that centre with my rogers email address and a different password and is in no way associated to Rogers, what happens to the memberscentre, and can we still access it once we close services from Rogers, as it doesn't seem to be verifying anything against rogers, although it may be a 2-phase authorization that once setup, it confirms that we still exist with Rogers.

 

Now time to go to beddy byes.

Bruce

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 49

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

On the rogers site (interestingly I could not submit comments but must use chat to comment) I have a few concerns:

 

- Regarding scanning or reading emails the inclusion of etc does not constrict Oath's use of scan data but implies it may use it for whatever it wishes. i.e. etc implies similar but without a common definition or understanding of 'similar' there is no constraint on Oath. Etc may also be interpreted as "So on and so forth..."

 

- I contract with Rogers for emails yet Rogers has failed to communicate directly with Rogers clients to provide updates or clarity.  If not for your post I would be unaware that Rogers has a "Yahoo Email – Updated Terms of Service & Privacy Policy" page. 

 

- Opt out: opting out of Yahoo's advertising or marketing does not clearly state we can opt of Oath advertising and marketing by affiliated companies and affiliates not under control 

 

"I wonder what that will mean if a canadian user does something that unintentially violates European law"  The EU law applies to the companies providing the service and storing and/or making use of client data.  Where foreign law may apply to us is the Oath T&C's contains a list of applications/services under the Oath umbrella that are covered by laws of specific countries (mostly US) regardless of any other clause.  Flickr Pro Is one if I remember correctly.

 

 

I'm a Senior Contributor
Posts: 152

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

@BS

 

Hello again, Bruce.  It has been a long time.  I admire the effort you and others are putting into resolving this issue.  As you know, I spent 18 months trying to get improvements to the Navigatr software after the initial roll-out.  I finally gave up and dropped my Rogers TV service and went with a combination of antenna, Netflix and Amazon Prime TV.  After a few months, my wife told me there was no way we were going back to cable TV as we had plenty to watch and the quality of the shows was generally better than network TV.

 

A few weeks ago, Rogers notified us about a price increase on our Internet service.  Since I had been experiencing problems with the speed on our connection, I was particularly annoyed about the price increase.  I am still on Ingnite 100 and I was getting download speeds below 10Mbps and upload speeds as low as .5Mbps.  I reported the issue on two occasions and was told that it was a neighborhood issue.  On a third occasion, the entire neighborhood was down.  Each report was closed by Rogers saying that no problem was found.  Fortunately the speed was restored to normal, although my router is reporting average speeds as low as 42Mbps this month although most days it is 100 or above.  At the time of the price increase, I looked into switching internet providers, but my wife talked me out of it because she didn't want to go through the hassle of moving from the Rogers e-mail address.

 

Then I received the e-mail about the new Yahoo terms of service and her position changed.  For all the reasons mentioned by others in previous posts, we started migrating from the Rogers.com e-mails.  It is a bit of work, and Yahoo has not given us much time to complete the transition.  Also, some of the sites that she uses do not have a way to change the e-mail address.  She has to register the new address, but there is no way to transfer her existing activity from the Rogers.com address to the new one.  I don't blame the sites.  Some of them are charities and don't necessarily have the resources to make such enhancements to their sites.

 

My point is that Rogers has missed that the "free/complimentary" e-mail addresses that came with the paid internet service were a deterrent to switching providers.  It was just too much hassle to switch after 20 years of use.  However, imposing these unreasonable terms of service removes the deterrent, especially for customers like me who have shown in the past that they are willing to drop Rogers services if they find the service causes them too much grief.

 

One issue that remains is the problem of Oath mining my contact information whenever I receive an e-mail from a rogers.com address.  So when rogers tells me that I have a new invoice for my account, Oath can mine my information and send me "offers" for services.  This is what used to happen with LinkedIn when a new user signed up.  LinkedIn sent incessant e-mails asking me to join up after they copied the entire contact list of the new user.  I have set up an e-mail address strictly for receiving e-mails from Rogers and changed  MyRogers and the Community Forums to use this e-mail address for sign-on.

 

Now I'm not naive enough to think that changing from Rogers.com is going to protect me from data mining.  In the followup answers to the US Congress, Facebook admitted that they gather information about non-Facebook users (like me) when they visit any site hat has a Facebook "like" button on it.  The Cambridge Analytica reports showed that it was quite possible to use artificial intelligence to link information from disparate sources to produce a unified picture of a particular person.  Nothing will prevent Yahoo/Oath from buying information to supplement the information they have from my previous activity on Yahoo.

 

The easiest and most effective way to voice my displeasure with Rogers is to walk away, first by dropping the Rogers e-mail addresses and then perhaps switching from Rogers Internet.  I no longer have the interest in complaining to the Office of the President, the Ombudsman, the Privacy Office, the CCTS, etc. and getting no results as happened in my last effort regarding Navigatr.

 

Keep up the good work, but please don't overdo it.  Rogers is not worth jeopardizing your health.

 

 

 

 

I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,153

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Thanks @roxandtreez  Yes I remember the Navigatr days way too well, and a recent change has brought back questions of font visability for visual impairment in order to improve performance on the old low powered boxes - you know the old problem with not enough power on the Navigtr 2 boxes and below.  They even forced the upgrade on the oldest of boxes not that long ago and people has it.

 

I like you had held back on cancellation of email accounts because it was such a paing and didn't change services in frustration and cost factors, only due to that restriction.

 

But this situation, along with the hacks of a couple of years ago and the new membercentre and changes in how to set up clients, led me to conclude at that time that I would begin to move everything, so for a year, I have slowly moved everything, and kept the email with Rogers active - in general, all I got was spam and that was the sign that I now could cut and run, but my wife hadn't fully cleared everything - due to a history of a private business, she had a lot of companies, suppliers, and customers that she had to deal with.

 

We are taking a different approach this time with her - we are setting up a private domain and email service for her business while just moving to another provider for peronal stuff - she already has the domain address set up and her own website, she just has to complete her notification to all involved, but she is very close.

 

I didn't cancel her account due to the old model of primary account which ws the primary email for all Rogers services, but there is no longer any reason for a primary rogers account to even exist to work with Rogers, so soon they all go.

 

And yes, I am watching out for my health and thank you for reminding me - yourmemory is long and your probably remember how over invested we all became with the Navigatr, and other issues that came up during that time - failing security certificates, one number coming or going, changes in Myrogers and details of phone calls, failure of the site for voice mails after warning about certifictes for months, failure on various browsers with one number and other services when specifications changed.

 

But loyalty is a hard thing to get past, and they keep coming up with suprises that in the moment keep me and then I get annoyed about somthing else, and now I need to make a deecision, or begin to just leave it alone and just consumer services and deal with my own issues when they come the old way - phone in, and escalate if necessary.

 

But glad to hear from you again, and glad that hte information we found was helpful.  You know me I research a lot and like to pass on what I find, but to get too invested is not good for me - I suggest the same - take on the battle, then take a break once in a while. There are no shortage of peopleon our side on this issue and there will be more.

 

I expect some more announcements and public media announcements, and they will have to answer probably at their next share holders meeting, and if the commission investigates, the results of those are published generally.

 

I have now locked myself out via my router - my own self control - not really, my wife has the password to the router, not me - she logs me in when I need to check the router admin.

 

Bruce

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 264

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

" I'm out of the Rogers email business"

 

I'm leaving my account open, solely to get email from those I haven't yet notified of my new address. 

 

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 49

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Don't forget to delete connections to other Oath companies and apps.

 

Huffington Post is asking for viewers to sign the Oath T&C's.

 

So its off my phone and out of my computer web browser.

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 27

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Just a quick update - it appears that the previous Oath privacy policy clause re Personal Data of Friends and Family has been removed completely.

 

I no longer see it at either:

 

https://policies.oath.com/ca/en/oath/terms/otos/index.html

 

or

 

https://policies.oath.com/

 

I can't see it anywhere else in the policies so unless someone can find it still there I think, on this issue - which was an important one - we can declare victorySmiley Happy

 

Thanks again to everybody for all of their work making calls, chats, emails, etc. to Rogers on this and the other important privacy issues identified.

 

I hope the remaining issues are also resolved soon.   I will let you know if I receive any comments back from the Rogers Office of the President or the Rogers Privacy Office.

 

 

 

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 264

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice


@Zaphod64wrote:

Just a quick update - it appears that the previous Oath privacy policy clause re Personal Data of Friends and Family has been removed completely.


Regardless, I've moved my email off Rogers.  What about Oath reading our emails?  Is that still there?  I just don't trust them.

The only thing that Rogers can do this is to move the email service off Yahoo/Oath completely and onto a provider that doesn't think it's OK to spy on users.

If it had been law enforcement doing this, they'd need a search warrant!