Change to Email Terms of Sevice

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I've Been Here Awhile
Posts: 2

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

This issue isn't that the email program needs to read Contacts to send an  email. that is well understood and completely normal. The issue is with the T&Cs that say Oath can contact your friends and contacts. Here is the language for Canadian users...

 

  1. Personal Data of Friends and Contacts. By using the Services you agree that you have obtained the consent of your friends and contacts to provide their personal information (for example: their email address or telephone number) to Oath or a third party, as applicable, and that Oath or a third party may use your name to send messages on your behalf to make the Services available to your friends and contacts. The Services are not to be used for any form of spam. 

The way I read this, Oath can use my contact information to make their "Services" available to my friends and contacts using my name without my knowledge or specific approval.

I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,153

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Rogers, at OOP level at moment, message to privacy commissioner, will go to CCTC depending upon response from OOP - kind of doubt we will resolve my concern at OOP level, but at moment, awaiting response then will escalate.

 

Haven't sent to my MP yet, but plan too.  Have been primarily researching at this time.

Bruce

I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,153

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

I remember reading a while back that Verizon purchased AOL for its platform and customer base, and Yahoo primarily for its customer base.

 

 

I just got surprised by another one today - I got a notice from Flikr - many years back I had opened a Flikr account when they first switched over to Yahoo.  Your log in to them is guess what - the Rogersmember portal, same as email.

 

They are joining with a company called SmugMug on wait for it ... May 25th, 2018.

 

If you do nothing, you automatically become part of the new company, no terms to agree to formally, logging in is all that is required.  SmugMug on their site says, You are not our product. You are our priority.

 

Most services would have you believe your stories are worth only what advertisers are willing to pay. Gone in 24 hours. Not worth the original pixels. They believe your stories are transient, disposable noise. We say forget their algorithms.

 

This from a company historically associated with Yahoo Flikr.  So another set of terms to consider - nope, I just deleted it, forgot I ever had it.

 

I recall way back when Rogers divested from the @home model that there were web page builders and we sites and we could transfer those to "somewhere", but I don't recall where those went - not sure I closed those accounts either.

 

How many historic relationships with Rogers got passed to Yahoo in the past that may still be lingering out there, now under the name of Yahoo - see the list of Oath companies and check if you have a presence there available under the Rogersmember access page.

 

Bruce

Highlighted
I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 27

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

@LLB

 

Thanks for the comments on my use of Outlook and also Thunderbird.  Other than the extreme inconvenience of changing my main email address (that I have had for 23 years and everyone knows me by), there is no reason I can't start with a new primary (non @rogers, non Yahoo/Oath related) email. 

 

@BS

 

Thanks for all of your detailed comments in this thread including the suggestion to put a disclaimer in my email footer regarding not giving permission to others to share my personal contact information. And also trying not to  correspond with people with @rogers emails is a good idea.

 

 

I have just started looking at Proton Mail.  Does anyone have any other suggestions for other email providers?

 

One option I just thought of is to set up an email account (s) at wix.com linked to my recently started website/blog that I have registered a domain name for (let's just call it website.com for now - it is still very much a work in progress). I would have  Name@website.com as my primary email.  I know no one else would have that email address as I own the domain name. I could set up secondary emails also under @website.com.  I have not looked into price or privacy comments for this Wix option.  Does anyone have comments on this option?

 

 

Also does anyone know why the Friends and Contacts provision is a Canada only provision in the Oath policies - what is unique about Canada that such a policy would be applied only to us. I find this intriguing. I would think the Oath legal team in drafting the revised policies including the country specific  provisions would have a reason or purpose for each provision and would review existing specific country privacy rules to see what policies they could possibly implement (or as the cynic in me would say - figure out what they could get away with by pushing the envelope as far as possible.) If this provision could be applied to all other countries, why wouldn't it be included in the general privacy provisions of at least in some other countries' specific provisions. I don't see it anywhere but in the Canada specific terms.  

 

 

I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 33

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Just got off the phone with Yahoo tech support and also spoke with Rogers billing and internet and tech support.

Yahoo hosts the rogers.com email addresses on their servers. That's it.

rogers.com and nl.rogers.com email addresses are NOT free and never ever were.

You pay for them with whatever internet package that you have with Rogers. FACT.

I got locked one time out of my main email address for my billing information with Rogers.

Tried to get the password reset with Yahoo. Yahoo couldn't reset my password since they don't have access to  Rogers email addresses.

Rogers email tech support had to do that for my paid email rogers.com email address.

Years ago I worked for Radio Shack Canada as a manager and we sold the Rogers internet starter kits, Rogers cell phones and we were  partnered with Rogers at the time to do that. I still remember my Rogers agent code to activate those products.

Being a former Rogers agent myself I can honestly say that Rogers agents do a great job of dealing with any issues that I have had as a Rogers customer now and the moderators here are great too.

A lot of the Rogers agents I've spoken with are very concerned about what's going on with Oath.

 

I've Been Here Awhile
Posts: 4

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

I've done the same, and my signatures will be changed tomorrow to tell email recipients not to use my @rogers.com email address.
I've Been Here Awhile
Posts: 4

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Seems to me that Oath's contacting my friends and contacts, without my permission (even though they pretend they have it) is the very definition of spam. Therefore they are breaking their own rules, and will hopefully disappear up their own Oath-hole.
I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,153

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

@Zaphod64  Glad that my comments and suggestions you have provided are useful.

 

At this time, I have not put a disclaimer, but I have contacted everyone I know who has a Rogers/Yahoo account, formally requested them to delete all of my email and contact information from their own accounts, and ask them to verify back to me that they have done so.

 

I have also advised them I will no longer correspond with them to a Rogers/Yahoo mail account.  A pain in the neck for all of us.  Two have responded that they have removed the information, but will continue to communicate with that platform, so I advised them I would no longer be communicating via email to them.  No other option at this point from my perspective unless that provision for Canada is changed.

 

Can someone provide the link for the document with that clause - I have tried to find it again, but haven't been able to find it.  I know I have seen it, but there are so many different terms and privacy documents in this whole mess, it is hard to keep track of what is where.

 

I too wonder what the legal framework they are trying to work around with Canada on this one - someone earlier mentioned non spam and phishing laws that apply to Canada.  There were laws that came into place on that issue sometime in the last 2 years,  I don't recall the details, but recall the discussion of the law - not even sure if it became implemented or not.

 

But the cynic in me too says, "what are they trying to get around that makes them write that specific clause for Canada" A bit of research led me to this site: http://fightspam.gc.ca/eic/site/030.nsf/eng/00303.html#ic-subnav-2

 

In Canada, anyone sending commercial emails soliciting business must provide an easily administered opt out strategy or an email, or site, or return to sender with "unsubscribe". But I don't find any statements about restrictions on where companies that send email solicitations or information about their services can get these contacts from.

 

But there is no restriction that prevents an individual from sending information about a service to their own contacts available for their use - Note this quote to a myth on the site - Fact: It is not illegal to send commercial electronic messages, but you need consent.
CASL applies to emails, text and instant messages, and any similar messages sent to electronic addresses.
CASL does not apply to promotional information you post online in places like blogs or social media.

 

Fact: You can continue to use email if you have express or implied consent from recipients. During the 36-month transition period, you can continue to use your current email list if

  • you have previously provided your products or services to them and
  • they haven't told you to stop.

 

I am going suggest that they are playing lose with the use email if you have implied consent - so under the law, these conditions came into effect as of  July 2014, and there was a three year window in which that last section applies.  So I guess under the law, they feel that if we agree that we have consent (note that in the Oath agreement, they didn't mentioned implied or express consent), and that they are considering it that since we have the contact, we have the consent to communicate and they are requesting us to agree - I suspect the only way around this one for us would be to remove all our contacts, but as asked before, unsure when they say contacts, is that from contact list, or contents and email address on sent and received mail, since we also give them right to access all that too.

 

If they do use the list, they must provide an explicit way for the recipient to refuse in the future, so guess they are playing on the chance that they can get a certain pool of new customers from our lists and they can opt out and then those who don't will still get them until they do.

 

This requirement in Canada law came into play in 2014, and officially any lists with existing customers as of July 2014 older than 3 years could not be used anymore, after 2017 July.

 There in lies the changes in policies we saw last year and earlier to reflect these new laws and in particular those that came out July 2017.  There were a number of companies that got caught not providing the appropriate methods  - you can see that on the site too.

 

Note that if we had our own business and we chose to market our services to our contacts, we must request permission and in the correspondence provide the ability to opt out.

 

I am learning a lot about our privacy laws - not the way I wanted to learn, but I am learning that I won't count on my providers of serices to tell me about my legal rights.   But I now know that when someone asks for my email address, I will ask for what purposes, and for their privacy principles of storage and processing, and remind them that when corresponding with me they have to provide a way to opt out of future communications as defined by Canadian law.

 

That is the only possible reason of why I can see they wrote that in about Canada was to get around the requirement that they have explicit or implied consent and if they weren't users of Yahoo services, they would not be able to solicit them like us, so they tried an end run by working with the assumption that since we have their information in our contacts and email, we must at least have implied or possibly explicit consent.  Stretching on my interpretation, but it makes sense to me, and would certainly be stretching the Canadian law on this one to the extreme of the boundaries.

 

I think if I had chosen to use Rogers/Yahoo (yeh, I know they will say it is not Rogers, but that is the logo and inclusion of both in the policy suggest to me on the surface, they certainly have some kind of legal agreement in place), I would be putting a disclaimer at the bottom with a link to the Oath policy and indicating they may choose not to correspond with me given the information and if they do receive something, and their is no opt out provided, send it to the CRTC enforcement division of this law.

 

Boy, this is clear and transparent - the article I posted suggested how could a 13 year old understand all this - how does the average consumer understand all this.  - How many hours of work by me and everyone on here and the media, and now goverment agencies will be spent getting clarification and getting full compliance?

 

The fine print and excessive wording are always the ones that get us, along with stating something that appears clear, and then referring you to the many paged complicated document.

 

Bruce

I've Been Here Awhile
Posts: 4

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

I think that the Wix.com services depend on your continuing to be a client of theirs (and therefore paying for the privilege). They will design your website for free, and host it, but last time I looked at their T&Cs, if I ever ceased to be a paying client, the web pages, structure and content, etc., were deleted. No matter if they were your copyright or your own material, they would delete it.

Now I don't know whether that's still true, but it certainly pushes me into the simple solution of registering my own domain name, then having it hosted by an ISP which allows multiple email addresses @yourdomain.xxx

However, I think I've spotted a flaw in this: If you send an email to anyone with an email provider that's part of Oath, they could get at you from the other side, as it were, ie, from their "contract" with the recipient of your email. If I'm correct, simply writing to anyone with a rogers.com email address can get you sucked into the Oath machine.

 

Comments anyone?  Please tell me I'm wrong...

I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,153

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Yes, I believe you are right on that one - they get us coming and going.  I think this will only get resolved fully if our privacy commision and CRTC decides that this is not in compliance with Canadian law.

 

Catch 22

 

For now, I am going to walk away from this discussion, as many on this board know, I manage a mental health disorder reasonably well, but if I become too invested in a topic, it impacts my health.  I will therefore, walk away for a while.  Keep fighting and learning everyone.  From everything I can see Canadian law is on our side, but unfortunately, Oath has chosen to test the limitations and interpretation of that law around consent, leaving it to us to deal with the consent issue with no mechanism to do so.  My own view is Rogers could intervene with Oath and negotiate this change, and I do hope they are doing just that, but for now, I am with those that this situation has placed a burden on how I communicate freely with privacy and although not fully satisfied that I have covered all the bases - yes, they can do the back end run via Oath customers who have my contact information, but I have done what I can for now - I will deal with each new message I get from an Oath email as it comes.

 

By the way, I dig some digging on services - over the years, I had opened a tumblr, flickr and overall yahoo, and messenger account just to try them out.  I have deleted all of those accounts too.  All of the access by these by the way are directed to the Rogersmember centre login, so definitely they are holding the keys to all this stuff, so they are providing a service in my definition of the word to set up and access the Oath services.

 

Bruce