Change to Email Terms of Sevice

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BS
I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,154

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

I opened a proton account (the free one) under a pseudonym and nice thing, they don't ask for any personal information at all - you just create a username and password.  Their two step validation is a bit complicated, because it is not automated like many others are, but on that level, they are imposing a very high degree of security and forcing us to fully understand and use true two step authentication, not leaving it automated in your device or login.

 

Think of it like having to understand and keep your keys or codes and locks to your home, toolbox, your bike lock, your car secure and remember how to use them.  With a few uses it becomes rather automatic my thinking, and yes, you can forget them, but they do give you a way to get back in - if you decide to use two step authentication, read the help section, it walks you through it.

 

But back to why I chose the free one - I am actually using this email account uniquely to allow me to communicate with those who have decided to accept and continue to use the Rogers Yahoo/Oath email systems - It is only for them and if Yahoo should decide to scoop the contact and market me, I will advise those persons, that any further communication via email to their accounts will not continue.

 

And then I would delete the email account.

 

A compromise, and I hope they will honour my withdrawal of consent for them to keep contacts in their mail system and delete email when done.

 

I won't be sending anything of any highly personal nature via email to them anyway, restricting it to hello's and the like.  I don't really interact with them much anyway, so I am not too concerned if I lose contact with them.

 

But this is my solution for those people who I interact who choose to use Rogers, or Yahoo mail systems - I will see how it works.

 

Now we just have to wait and see what US committees and Canadian committes will say about all this and how the companies will act or how the committes will act if they don't.

 

Again, what a fine mess we have got ourselves into - I know I gave a lot of trust to statements like we take your security seriously, but now we see in the actions of some companies, that trust was not necessarily warranted.

 

Bruce

BS
I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,154

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Follow-up to that list of past contacts that came up when I was clearing my yahoo rogers account.

 

It showed up in the filter choice of email addresses, even though I had permanently deleted the contact list.  I deleted all cookies and cache, yet it still came on Firefox - so it must have been on the server level.  I haven't checked other devices to see if it was there too.

 

I deleted them one by one in the list that came up - I would put a letter a in, and every address with an a would come up, and one by one I deleted them.  Once I did that they were gone.

 

No idea where the web interface was drawing that information from or where it is stored, but it certainly was surprising that the automated list of addresses for that and sending email is not coming from your contact list, but from somewhere else.  An example, is that even if you have not saved a contact from a recent email, if you type that address in with the first few letters, it will appear in the To list of possible emails.

 

Automation to make things easy for us, but also means that our information is being stored in places we may not have full control over - the things that this whole situation is teaching me about email.

 

And I used to manage a Microsoft Exchange Server at a corporate level and had staff who were certified in its design, and I thought I had a solid understanding of email.  We had web access too, but each system is unique.

 

By the way, in case anyone wonders what would Rogers have to do to pull all our email from Yahoo and put them on their own controlled servers, or a Canadian company, or just a different one.

 

Currently, there is what is known as an mx address (like a dns address), which defines the @rogers domain name as an email server with the appropriate IP addresses assigned to those servers.  At this time, @rogers, email would be directed to Yahoo servers, and the information is managed from their servers -  Rogers may have applications of their own for management like the portal.

 

So if they want to move, they just choose another server company (could be them or anyone) and move the data in one data dump to the new servers, and then contact the organization that manages domain and email server names and redirect the mx address to new servers.

 

They would have to provide us advance notice of the change, as they would have to roll out a different interface (but they could just get the portal rewritten).  Nothing wold have to be done on most clients or devices as your email would still be ...@rogers and you would just be contacting a new server through the redirected mx address.  Did it a few times over the years with corporate servers.

 

It takes time and money to set up, and advance notice of any changes for the user (i.e., you would not be typing in Yahoo.ca, which now takes us to the portal once you log in anyway, you would just go to the portal), and they do a test cutover while keeping the old running and then do a full cutover.

 

Bruce

Meowmix
I'm a Trusted Advisor
Posts: 32,102

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Hey guys.

This is the response Rogers gave to Mobilesyrup.

" Our customers’ privacy is extremely important as Canadians connect more and more whether its through social media, email or applications,” said a Rogers spokesperson, in an email to MobileSyrup. “Yahoo! recently updated its terms and conditions to be more clear and transparent, and we believe it is important that customers take the time to review any changes and adjust their settings to make sure they’re right for them.”

" It should be mentioned that while MobileSyrup has been made directly aware of Rogers subscribers expressing concerns, this is not an issue specific to Rogers. It’s a global change that will affect all Yahoo and AOL customers. Yahoo customers should also be able to opt out of interest-based advertising across the web or specific to Yahoo. They should also be able to opt out of marketing messages, block search personalization, as well as opt out of personalized content.

Read more at MobileSyrup.com: Rogers email changes cause concerns among subscribers"
LLB
I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 49

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

I keep reading about how we "should be able to opt out" but I have seen nothing in the Oath terms nor have I seen specifics from rogers on how we would do so.  And most of the "should be able to"'s seem to refer to certain marketing efforts by Oath.

 

I have also seen nothing concerning the culling of my contact list for personal identification, emails and phone numbers of those I communicate with, nor the culling of my communications with financial institutions, banks or my financial transactions.  How do I opt out, how do I know if I haven't?

 

Why does Oath assume every one on my contact list has given permission to Oath, through me, to make use of their contact information as they see fit?

BS
I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,154

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

I was wondering the answer to your questions - seems that Rogers is dumping all responsibility onto us the customer to fully understand these terms, what they mean, and that there are ways to "opt out", yet provide no direction on just how to do that.

 

I guess the way to test and push the system some more is to contact tech support and speak to that message as written, and then request them to walk you through how to find the options on the sites to opt out, and can they explain the pros and cons of opting out - what happens to our access to services if we choose to do so.  If they can't answer, ask who you would contact, as no one on the forums seems to be able to get this clarity and we are learning these things through third part publications, not directly from Rogers to its customers who are directly impacted, and seem to have no clear answers so far as reported here on how for us to proceed.

 

As for the permission by others - I think that is the point - there is no way we can get permission from our contacts - each time we get a new contact (and by the way, the system saves that person, even only for a short period time for quick entry in your reply and to box by typing the first few letters whether you add them as a contact or not.

 

Are we supposed to contact each of these persons, and attempt to explain the Oath Terms that we have bound ourselves and that if they don't agree to have their email address and contact information used for their internal marketing purposes, they need to explicitly tell us and we will not add them to our contact lists and delete their emails, and then I personally would advise them if I was on Rogers/yahoo to never contact this email again, and I would do as I have done and create a Protonmail account for them, or my current alternative email account.

 

Scarcasm - yeh right, sure that is going to happen. And if they want to remove that consent, how do they do so, and how do we advise Yahoo they can't use that contact since they withdrew consent, since it will not be stripped from their system immediately as it exists in backups and possibly other storage locations.

 

Sorry, but after the Facebook incident, and then Google getting caught in the same and they changed their terms, and Microsoft has explicitly changed that too, my trust of email providers and social media tools is not high.

 

And finally - I agree there is a difference between an email from Yahoo - basic email is free, but we know they are targetting us, but never fully understood just how far they could actually go with the use of our information and that of others. So nothing is truly free, we are now learning the costs and some of us are being vocal that we don't agree and intend to try to make change.  Email from Rogers I don't consider to be free - it is part of our service package, has always been so and is part of the necessities if they wish to compete with other ISP's.  So I expect them to live up to protecting us the customer, not just saying we need to read and understand the terms and make our decisions.

 

And from my experience with three people, I had to remove them as a contact and requested them to remove me from their Rogers/yahoo contacts and delete my emails and whether they do or not, I will never really know.

 

So I think tomorrow I will call in and ask how I opt out of these features - so how it go - you will have to contact Yahoo or go to their site and help sites to gather that information is my expected information.

 

Maybe I will be surprised and they will direct me right there.

 

We need to read the terms and choose the options that best suit us - I have read them, do understand them, don't understand how to opt out and so chose the easy route, just stop using it.  There will be some like my contact friends who will just go ahead and not be concerned, but it is going be through users demanding clarity, transparency, and not total dependence upon government committees and industry partners to provide true security and privacy to us the consumer.  As many say, we are the product now and we are being sold.

BS
I'm a Senior Advisor
Posts: 2,154

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Privacy and Opt out options for Yahoo/Rogers email and services.

 

I did my further due diligence as suggested by Rogers in their recent update - at least they are talking and looking into options - that is a start.

 

In terms of the terms, the details have been clearly articulated here, and are in clear language, except for that buried reference to privacy from marketing from Oath and Verizon to our contacts deep in one of the three documents that you must read through.

 

Beyond the clear language, you will need to first go to the privacy and terms sections under you settings gear on the email.

 

From there you can start to work your way reading through your options.

 

You can opt out of the use of tracking cookie tools, and marketing preferences - wish I had kept track of the steps to find some of this stuff - it is a complex maze - from the privacy and crtc tab at bottom of Rogers site, I found a link to reference to the of which Rogers is a part of it.

 

In it you will see what it is all about, but basically it is many companies that also happen to require the use of Adobe to run some feature sets that share their data amounst less than 100 companies, but growing to customize adds to you and your devices.  you can disconnnect, so I did.  don't know how that impacts the ability to use Adobe add-ons.  Maybe time to read the Adobe terms too.

 

In the privacy section it says:

 

Personal information collected for the Internet Service may be stored and processed in Canada, the United States or other countries and may be subject to the legal jurisdiction of these countries.

 

So guess we need clarification on just what our rights are in Canada, and what does it mean when we agree to keep using our services, when the agreement is in violation of Canada law, whatever that may fully be - where is the transparency on this one.

 

"If you have any questions or concerns about your privacy relating to the Internet Service, you may call a Rogers Customer Service Representative or send an e-mail to privacy@rci.rogers.com."

 

Keep contacting them - I know it will overload an already overloaded system for customers who are just trying to use their other services, but this is what they told us to do, so phone and email until you are satisfied with the answers and make a decision.

 

Another site that Yahoo provides to you is https://www.networkadvertising.org/understanding-online-advertising/

 

You can opt out of a lot of collection agencies this way - some you have to do by device, some are browswer specific, so you have to do it for each.  Read through the information.  rogers provides access to this tool too.

 

These options do not stop marketing and ads, they just remove personalized to your interests.  Who knows if they still access personal information, that is not spoken too that I have seen.

 

Once logged into Yahoo - you can go to https://aim.yahoo.com/aim/ca/en/optout/ or from their privacy link and terms link in the settings and set some more options.  Still does not address much of our concerns about what is in the Oath agreement.

 

These are all initiatives industry wide, but I didn't know that Adobe was passing information when I used a Rogers site with Adobe tools active on the site - Take a look in your Rogers cookies and you will see all the sites, like Google analytic and many others that they are interacting with.  you will be surprised.

 

In the yahoo controls section you will find a list of options you can work with to restrict some things, but again, nothing is restricting a lot of what the Oath terms are describing, or deeper in the other agreements, like the access to contact information for marketing of their services.

 

at this site reference in the oath privacy link https://policies.oath.com/ca/en/oath/privacy/products/index.html you can see all the products that you need to look at individually, as they may have slightly different terms and privacy to review.

 

These clear language terms are some that really stand out to me:

 

We may collect and combine information when you interact with Oath Services including:

 

When you use our Services to communicate with others or post, upload or store content (such as comments, photos, voice inputs, videos, emails, messaging services and attachments).

 

Oath analyzes and stores all communications content, including email content from incoming and outgoing mail.  This allows us to deliver, personalize and develop relevant features, content, advertising and Services.

 

Create analytics and reports for external parties, including partners, publishers, advertisers, apps, third-parties and the public regarding the use of and trends within our Services and ads, including showing trends to partners regarding general preferences, the effectiveness of ads and information on user experiences. These analytics and reports may include aggregate or pseudonymized information.

 

This is the practice that was used by Facebook providing data to Cambridge analytics - and this type of data, although aggregate and pseudonymized, as a person trained in this area, with the correct data sets and tools, you can target groups which potentially can influence attitudes of large groups of people, supporting or disputing beliefs of groups and are powerful marketing tools for targeting purposes.

 

As a consumer of some free services, I expect some of this to happen, but not for my contacts to be analyzed too and the content of our correspondence to be analyzed for key words or whatever the analytics companies may be looking for. And as we see in the media, with Facebook, most did not know that this was going on, and some of these terms permit practices that can be used for legitimate benefit, but also for less legimitate purposes.

 

I see no way to opt out of these terms, accept to decline to accept and ultimately can't use the service.

 

I leave it for others to dig further - I feel like I am doing a research study for my masters degree in statistics and use of data to change human behaviour.  20 years ago when I wrote my own papers on these topics, I never foresaw just how far technology was going to take the industry in its ability to collect, and also to pass this information between companies.  Rogers alone shares information with at least 50 companies that I can see, some affiliated, some less obviously so - like tv networks, that seems obvious, collecting data from our use of things like anyplace TV use back to the networks and who know what information is being sent.  We only get general statements of how they collect and use data, not the specifics.  If it was research with legitimate research companies, it would require ethics review and approval and explicit consent and feedback on the outcomes of the use of our data.  Industry doesn't seem to have this same principle of the use of behaviour on human beings that the health industry and universities are required to get.

 

So, I end with the statement, yes, it is our responsibility to review and search and understand our options before agreeing, but lets get seiours - it took me 4 hours to get this far and right it all up - the average person opening an email up and using their anyplace TV and browser main sties like Yahoo and search engines isn't going to be going into this depth.

 

Rogers, as far as I am concerned is required to be transparent in their practices and how and what we can opt out of.  The set of things we can opt out of from what I have seen so far is very limited, and our option is to opt out completely.

 

Consider looking at Proton mail as an alternative.

 

I think this is what people have been trying to warn us of for a long time, and now we are becoming knowlegeable, so now we have to speak up for change and protections.

 

finally, again, I will say, email is not a free service from Rogers - it is part of our services, and happens to be associated to Yahoo mail, which offers free accounts.  In fact we traditionally have received some of the paid services of Yahoo as part of our use of their Internet services, web search sites, email and other services.  So I view it that Rogers has the rresponsiblity to let us know easily what they do with our data, not make us search and dig links for hours, and at the end of the day, the onlyoption to protection of our data is not to use the service.

 

Oh well, this is our "brave new world", and we are all learning that we have to take our due diligence, and I am pleased that rogers is beginning to open up more on this issue as shown in the progression of public interview we have red here on this site.

 

My wife just saw a post about all this on Facebook among her many friends, so it is moving slowly through social networks and the discussion of the general public - so for that I thank the members of this forum for digging into this, for continuing to push and keep the issue in the forefront, for finding alternatives. 

 

This is a larger issue across the world, and we are a small portion of the larger problem, and these discussions need to continue.  I am going to walk away for a bit, but will keep reviewing.

 

My Rogers email address now sit empty, no contacxts, and I don't interact with Rogers yahoo mail users via their associated servers.  So I have read the terms and made my choice - I really was given no other choice if i truly care about my privacy and data, and that of my contacts, and the possible broader use of that data pooled together with millions of others for who knows what reasons, not just to personalize advertising and to improve our experience - sounds all so rosy and nice.  Not so nice when you see the results of Facebook/Cambridge and we watch due to pressure Google change up their terms, Facebook remove the use of contact data, and Microsoft changing their terms too.

 

good night everyone.  I am confident that with time, things like this will change in favour of democratic choice over control of our personal information and privacy - hey, isn't that a right in our constitution and charter of rights and freedom - right to personal privacy!!

 

Bruce

rharding0
I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 17

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Excellent story in the Globe last night by Christine Dobby. She updated her previous story sfter speaking to the Canadian Privacy Commisioners office and Rogers CEO, Joe Natale.

Sounds like Oath is definitely violating the law as far as the permissions we have to give so they can mine contact info and send them advertising using your own email address. The Rogers CEO wasn't as meek as his spokespeople yesterday, he was actually quite forceful about how seriously they take customers privacy. Guess we'll have to wait and see, but we're definitely having an impact.

Here's a link to the updated Globe story by Christine Dobby. She deserves all our thanks for getting this out in the open so quickly.
https://www.theglobeandmail.com/business/article-rogers-terms-of-service-asks-e-mail-users-to-share-...
Nettangel
I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 24

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Yes, good article @rharding0 thank you for posting.

 

I received 2 phone calls yesterday from a Rogers rep from the office of the CEO.

Unfortunately, I missed them. She left her number and will be back in the office on Tuesday.

I will return her call. 

 

I wrote a few letters to Joe Natale regarding our concerns, never expecting acknowledgment.

Good to know the CEO is addressing this serious issue. 

I am feeling a bit more confident now. It looks like something will be done to protect our data from being abused. 

 

The more people know, the worse PR it is for Rogers, best to nip it in the bud.

As far as Yahoo is concerned, they should be banned from doing business in Canada.

 

Such a pain to transfer email, but once complete, I will be able to enjoy the internet once again.

I truly do love all my Rogers services and why I stayed with them for all these years. Hoping to continue with them for many years to come. 

 

Have a wonderful weekend everyone!

 

 

 

LLB
I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 49

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Regardless of opt out options when using the products of Oath the fact is that you must agree to the T&C in totality up front.

 

Any options available to you to opt out are simply app related and can be changed or removed when the app updates.   Selecting an opt out option for one specific app covering one specific data set does not change the T&C's.  They still apply.

 

The data can be gathered by means other than the one app containing opt out provisions.  And based on the verbiage so far, the opt out relates to receiving directed marketing, not to Oath culling your data.

 

By example, I limit Facebook's use of my data to direct marketing at me.  That does not prevent FB from sending general marketing ads at me.  It does limit third party culling of my data, but nothing stops FB from collecting my data, limited though it may be.   

LLB
I Plan to Stick Around
Posts: 49

Re: Change to Email Terms of Sevice

Despite Roger's Natale statement on privacy Roger's negates any concern on privacy by this statement:

 

"Spokeswoman Michelle Kelly added: “We believe it is important that customers take the time to review any changes and adjust their settings to make sure they’re right for them.”"

 

You cannot adjust any settings until you agree to the terms, the adjustments relate solely to the choice of directed advertising based on the data collected or just mass advertising not specific to you.

 

The broad collection and use of the data is still allowed but you have a choice on whether you get ads from Home Depot when you search for patio furniture or wind up seeing ads for a Cadillac 😉

 

A true opt out provision would allow you to opt out of specific articles in the T&C's, such as the collection of data off your contact list, before agreeing to it.

 

Better yet would be an opt in provision on the T&C's.  Rather than working with implied consent (how many Roger's clients have already agreed to the T&C's unaware of what it entails on the assumption it just reflects the same basic terms as the previous Yahoo agreement) such efforts should require knowing consent.