How do you like Ignite TV compared to Digital Cable?

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Re: How do you like Ignite TV compared to Digital Cable?


@-G- wrote:

@OLDYELLR  Using the word "flaws" and painting IPTV with that word using a broad brush is a bit unfair.

 

Also, comparing an SA8300HD with Ignite TV is a bit like comparing a Windows 3.1 PC to a modern Mac... and saying that the Mac is awful because it doesn't ship with Solitaire.  Ignite TV is different and it takes some getting used to.  And yeah, the older platform certainly does do some things better.

 

To implement IPTV well requires a HUGE capital investment, and the smaller providers inevitably need to cut corners.  I don't believe that Rogers cut corners. 


By "flaws" I mean deficiencies as compared to my old SA8300HD SARA interface.  They've already been mentioned here earlier, but any feature omitted is a flaw.

1. With my SA8300HD I could pause a recording and go through it frame by frame. That option was eliminated in the next 2 interfaces even before Ignite TV.

2. Comparing SARA to Windows 3.1 is inaccurate, you should compare it to DOS or Desqview. Personally I preferred the simple text based interface to the fancy distracting graphical one.

3. I seldom, if ever, saw glitches or pixelation on my PVR recordings on cable. but I've seen more of it on cloud recordings and even occasional buffering on playback, even with a 250 Mbps  fibre connection.

 

Yes. my provider is a smaller regional outfit and does not have the infrastructure of Rogers. I just posted here to see if Rogers customers saw the same deficiencies switching from digital cable to Ignite TV as I'm seeing switching to IPTV.

 


Rogers PayGo. Location: S-W Ontario
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Re: How do you like Ignite TV compared to Digital Cable?


@OLDYELLR wrote:

1. With my SA8300HD I could pause a recording and go through it frame by frame. That option was eliminated in the next 2 interfaces even before Ignite TV.


With Ignite TV, if I pause live TV or a recording, then press "FF" immediately followed by "Pause", a "frame advance" symbol shows up on the screen for a split second before switching to pause.  I suspect that a "frame advance" feature may actually be lurking in the code somewhere but is disabled.



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Re: How do you like Ignite TV compared to Digital Cable?

Reading thru a bunch of old threads as I mentally prepare to switch to Ignite and came across this one. How bad is the judder when Ignite TV needs to deinterlace? Does it happen with all interlaced content on any channel? And is it even still a problem or has Rogers improved their IPTV decoding? Are they using HEVC? With digital cable on a Nextbox 3, judder is also present but from what I can tell, it’s only on some channels and some content. With Ignite, is it the same as digital or is it worse? Judder is something that drives me absolutely crazy and gives me a headache, so if it happens on ALL interlaced content with Ignite, then I might need to reconsider my migration.

Also, wondering how overall picture quality on Ignite (clarity, color accuracy, etc) compares directly to a Nextbox 3.0 connected to a 1080p tv? As mentioned, my current setup is an NB3, which I have connected to a Panasonic Viera plasma and I absolutely love the picture quality. I’m serious when I say that most channels are very high quality...I would even say that many channels look as good as Netflix on its highest quality setting. Should I expect Ignite to be of the same overall quality?
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Re: How do you like Ignite TV compared to Digital Cable?

@toolcubed  It's really hard to compare the picture quality of Ignite TV vs. Digital TV.  The technologies involved are different, the encoding pipelines are different, and any comparison is also subjective due to differences in perception from one  person to another.  All that I can say is that picture quality on Ignite TV is better in some ways, not as good in others.  You really have to see it for yourself firsthand and form your own opinion.

 

Over the last 15 years, I have gone from Rogers Digital TV (SARA firmware) to Fibe TV to Digital TV (very briefly, Navigatr firmware) to Fibe TV to Ignite TV.

 

With Digital TV (SARA) I had the set-top box configured as pass-through, so the incoming signal would be sent directly to my TV, unprocessed, and my TV would perform any deinterlacing.  Channels were noticeably compressed to keep the bitrates down before retransmission.

 

With Fibe TV, all HD channels were deinterlaced and downconverted to 720p and then compressed to keep the bitstream under 5 Mb/s.  This transcoding made for a softer picture that looked less crisp than Digital TV.  (The IPTV platform was Ericsson Mediaroom.  The channels were sent as multicast streams and the service had to work over 15 Mb/s VDSL.)

 

With Digital TV (Navigatr), The firmware forced you to select an output format and the STB would de-interlace and transcode it before sending it to your TV.  The picture quality seemed decent-enough.  However, I didn't have much experience with Digital TV this time around because the user experience was so awful (Navigatr was still new at the time) and I cancelled the service after only 6 weeks.

 

With Ignite TV, the HD, bitrates are nominally in the 8 - 10 Mb/s range.  It's streamed with an adaptive bitrate, traffic for the unicast stream is sent in bursts, and at the highest quality, there is less compression than Digital TV since Rogers does not have to worry as much about bandwidth constraints.  1080i source feeds are deinterlaced prior to streaming.  IIRC, the Xi6 set-top boxes support H.264/AVC and H.265/HEVC.  (I can't post a source for this information anymore because I can no longer access it; it is now hidden and only available to registered Xfinity developers.)  I suspect that the Ignite HD streams are AVC-encoded; 4K streams would be HEVC.

 

As for the judder on Ignite, it is VERY noticeable, especially whenever a scene pans, and often on rolling credits.  It's bothering me more and more.  My parents still have Digital TV and I can honestly say that Ignite TV is worse in this regard... at least to me.

 

To really appreciate the differences with any of the above from the original broadcast, watch the same content in over-the-air HD,  (You can even make a simple antenna using nothing but a paper clip!)

 

Netflix will beat all of those out.



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Re: How do you like Ignite TV compared to Digital Cable?

Thanks again for the quick response. The judder issue now has me very worried. I hardly notice any on digital apart from some content as I mentioned in my previous post. I don’t notice any judder whatsoever with scrolling text or rolling credits. That will definitely bother me with Ignite, so for the small amount of money I’m going to be saving, it’s probably not worth it for me to switch. My current digital services have been fairly solid over the past few years.

And yes, I know how much better uncompressed OTA can be...I have an indoor antenna that I’ve tried a few times. To be honest, there are many channels on digital cable where I don’t notice any compression...Rogers seems to have really improved pic quality with digital over the years.
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Re: How do you like Ignite TV compared to Digital Cable?

@toolcubed  You really have to check Ignite out for yourself in a Rogers store.  The judder is probably not as bad as you fear, but it is there.  It's not noticeable on most content... but if you are watching a space movie with a panning star field in the background, or watching a home reno show when they pan across a room for the final reveal, it's very noticeable.  The fast-rolling credits at the end of a current Doctor Who episode look especially bad.  The judder could also be worse on some channels than on others.  CP24 is a good channel to "torture test" IPTV , especially when it has rolling text on the lower-third, and it looks fine on Ignite, although you will see slight judder on the traffic cameras.

 

The frame rates on Ignite are actually pretty good.  The problem with de-interlacing in general is that it takes a lot of compute power to do properly, and optimization techniques that work well in some cases can fail badly in others.  Furthermore, depending on how you do motion interpolation, you could soften or blur the picture and end up with the dreaded "soap opera effect", introduce weird digital artifacts, or start seeing something else that is worse far than the judder that you are trying to eliminate.



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Re: How do you like Ignite TV compared to Digital Cable?

Well I can always check out my sis-in-law’s Ignite or my friend’s but it might not matter much. You’ve stated two examples (space movie and home reno show) of what I tend to watch mostly lol. If you’re saying judder is noticeable during that type of content, then Ignite isn’t for me right now. There is zero judder with that content on my NB3. I’ll still try to check it out before my scheduled migration and then just cancel the order if what I see with my own eyes confirms everything mentioned here. Thanks again...really appreciate all the help and quick responses!
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Re: How do you like Ignite TV compared to Digital Cable?

@-G-

Have you tried changing the output resolution on the Xi6 to something else other than 1080p60 (e.g. 1080i) to see if that improves judder?
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Re: How do you like Ignite TV compared to Digital Cable?


@toolcubed wrote:
Have you tried changing the output resolution on the Xi6 to something else other than 1080p60 (e.g. 1080i) to see if that improves judder?

The judder is only apparent every so often.  It's not a constant annoyance.  If I put my brain into a mode where I'm constantly looking for problems, I will see issues on every TV service out there.  I have brought the issue up here primarily so that our feedback will get passed on to the engineering teams, so that they, in turn, can address it either as a support issue with their vendor(s) or through future updates/upgrades/maintenance.

 

As for changing the output to 1080i, I would not expect it to improve things because you would be taking a 1080i source signal, deinterlacing and transcoding it to 1080p for streaming, converting it again to 1080i on the set-top box, then my TV would be deinterlacing it again so that it can display progressively on an LCD panel.  However, I did try setting the output to 1080i and I can't say that it made things any better or any worse.