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New Nextbox Navigator

BS
I'm a Senior Advisor

My wife was just moving through the new navigator and has the following questions, concerns.

 

The first screens for the guide are fine, but the fonts are a bit small, even on a 46 inch TV. We are all getting old, let's not forget us.

 

In the section for listing and managing recordings, the boxes cut off the full names of the shows, don't show dates, would rather have option of old list style with all details right in one spot.

 

When looking at multiple shows, you have to go to each listed show recorded, but there is no reference to the date until you highlight the show. Then this highlighted information on the show is even smaller and I have almost perfect vision after my cataract surgury, and I can barely read it. My wife can't read it at all. You do have the date on the top right that is in a bigger font, but the show information is almost unreadable and my 24 year old daughter who just came in also comment that it is almost unreadable.

 

Is there an option for increasing font size and changing to a list view rather than the boxes on the list of the recordings page. Don't like the box feature or the way the contents view at all for the above reasons. See little or benefit for this change.

 

Otherwise, I am kind of indifferent to the new layout, but do like some features.  I will probably turn off the banner across the bottom off in settings. I can get the same information from the guide.

 

Yes, there is a bit of getting used to change, but some of this change seems to be change for the sake of change. I do like that it takes less clicking to move around though, it just the display formats and font sizes that are creating legitimate problems for my family.

 

BS

 

***Edited Labels***

1,698 REPLIES 1,698

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

BS
I'm a Senior Advisor

Very well put @neilpalmer400 . I agree 1000% with what you have said. I like you, certainly hope that all the effort and work that you put into the old code, and now debugging the new code will result in a stable box again, but given how much is in there, 2016, from my experience in this type of work would be a reasonable timeline.  If they say a couple of weeks, it will be too rushed and prone to human errors. I pitty the poor programmers if they get rushed in all this. Debugging code at the base level is not an easy task.

 

By the way, I was asking today about another rollout (the new billing) and was informed that it was tested on Chrome and Explorer, but they couldn't be expected to know what the whole user base settings would be.  Common 75% view worked on Chrome, 100% did not. The default level of zoom is 100% on chrome, and did noone even think to test it on different zoom levels. Basic testing, and that information of how our browsers are used, the settings, the versions, etc is all sitting in the cookies, so the whole range of users and how they use it can be available just by aggregating up that data at a meta level.  But guess no one thought of that one.  Oh well, they have fixed that one, took a month, but they still haven't fixed one bug in explorer 11 in terms of the download of detailed phone talk calls (sorry they call it talk detail, not phone calls - we even have to learn new language and meanings along the way.)

 

But I digress, just presented this as how from the perspective of Rogers staff, they say they have tested, and debugged, extensively, and that not every nextbox is being impacted the same (isn't the underlying code all the same, so why should there be great difference between users), but I am sorry, based upon my experience, I will take their claim that they tested and debugged extensively, but I question just how broad that was as there are so many different ways that we all use our equipment to meet our unique needs, but on a basic level a lot of these user issues reported here.

 

So I won't repeat what you said, but simply, yes, someone acknowledge that they have got the whole list, and they are working on it and thank us.

 

And we will see in the next roll out how it goes.  Hope if it is all fixed for the next group that they remember to roll it out to us too.  Life goes on.

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

jebbyg
I've Been Here Awhile

One problem I'm having is that previously when you pressed the "list" button twice it gave a list of all your timers not just the ones that are recording currently, by date, alphabetically, etc.  There were different tabs for different options.  This option is now gone. I have no idea whether a show I had a timer for will record once new episodes start.  I've contacted Rogers last week. They said they would get back to me within 48 hours. No one called me back. I contacted them again on Tuesday and was promised an update in 48 hours and heard nothing back.  They advised that this is a problem they were not aware of and will need to work a patch around it. It's very frustrating to say the least.

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

User2014
I Plan to Stick Around
Dear RogersDarrell - You mentioned that we should stay tuned for an update on Thursday from Rogers. Do you know when on Thursday the promised Rogers Blog Update will be posted...?

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

park
I'm an Advisor

@User2014 wrote:
Dear RogersDarrell - You mentioned that we should stay tuned for an update on Thursday from Rogers. Do you know when on Thursday the promised Rogers Blog Update will be posted...?

He did not say which Thursday. There are lots of Thursdays coming up. One every week !

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

park
I'm an Advisor

Thx BS.

 

You remind me of a great software designer I once had the privilege to work with.

 

We were tasked with making the best text editor we could for a modern TELEX machine that used floppy disks instead of paper tape. [very much like a PVR (disk) to replace a VCR (tape) ].

The challenge was that it had to fit in 2K memory as that was all that was left over after the base low-level disk, file and I/O software, took most of the available memory.

 

I was amazed at how my guru friend worked. After he desiged the editor and wrote the code once, he never looked at the code again. He had me run/test different things and tell him what happened. Then he told me what to change.  It was a unique experience for me. 

 

We even had room left over to add some extra commands.

As paper-tape was physical and unidirectional you could only erase(all holes filled) and "Move" text futher down the tape.  But disk was different so we invent the "Wove" command (Move backwards).  Like play (sorry watch) in reverse on a PVR ?  But I digress.

 

Maybe a few of us more vocal types can help Rogers out of their pickle, and design an excellent PVR manager.  Programming the UI for PVR is not rocket science.  Would you be willing if we can get Rogers to play ball?

 

 

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

SpeedyC
I'm a Reliable Contributor
The update happened for me this monring ... not smoothly surprisingly. When I got up at 4am, I noticed the display on my 8642 kept saying 'DNLD' (download).

I had to unplug the cord to force a reboot ... all seems "well" now.

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

jinx8910
I Plan to Stick Around
What update? What's different ? Mine is the same. Should I unplug?

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

OLDYELLR
I'm a Senior Advisor

I read on Digital Home this morning that some people got a big update overnight and it took some rebooting to get back up. No reports if anything was fixed or improved yet. I presume this was the customers who got the first wave of Navigatr.


Rogers PayGo. Location: S-W Ontario

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

RogersStrick
Community Manager (Retired)
Community Manager (Retired)

Hi everyone,

 

Thank-you for your continued patience as we work on addressing the issues with the new Navigatr guide for NextBox.

Your feedback helped us quickly identify issues and we sincerely apologize if you experienced any inconveniences caused by the rollout. 

 

As soon as we discovered that some customers were experiencing issues with the update, we immediately stopped rolling out this upgrade to additional customers.

 

We’ve identified fixes and are working to correct the most impactful issues first. 

 

We will start rolling out the upgrade again once the issues have been resolved.  As more information becomes available, we’ll provide further updates.

 

We apologize for any inconvenience this may have caused and thank you again for your patience as we work to improve your TV experience.

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

User2014
I Plan to Stick Around
TY

Can you confirm if the fixes you mention are going to address

a) programming glitches in the UI such as PINs being required or programs being deleted

or

b) the serious issue of the loss of basic functions (listed throughout this forum) from the last UI to this new one

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

Mister_A
I Plan to Stick Around

@BS wrote:
...As I said to the manager - from my perspective as a programmer, there are some clear coding issues and interface consistency issues (there should be consistent ways to do everything within the design as much as possible).
...If I have to stay with tiles, I will learn, if I have to look into tiles for recordings and scheduled recordings, I will learn, but I think they can also consider how to improve it based upon our feedback.  We are the users, let's remember.
... I ust want to watch my TV and my PVR in a reasonably logical and simple way.  I don't think I am asking for much here.


Dear BS (and you too, Rogers Repair Team...),

 

I thought I was done here, but apparently not. While I agree with most of your various messages, I must take exception to a couple of things you said above.

 

Yes, all the actual programming errors must be fixed, but in addition to that, as users, we should not have to accept an illogical, difficult to read, reduced-functionality, reduced information user interface just because (and this is an assumption of course) some programmer thought it would be a good idea to emulate Windows 8.

 

The PVR interface is *not* an improvement -- it is a significantly less user-friendly interface than the previous design. Forget about the various operational programming differences. There is simply no reason to switch from a grid of lines/columns, with a line for each recording, to the ridiculous 'Tile' interface that provides practically no useful information on the main page.

 

As I said before, if tiles were such a bright idea, instead of a failed copy of Windows 8, why not use them for the channel guide also? If not, why change something that was working, and reduce the font size and color contrast while you're at it?

 

Why eliminate the running time from the information displayed?

 

Why show ‘recommendations’ from pay-per-view / on-demand instead of a list of the recorded shows?

 

Why change the simple, and already-learned command for recorded shows vs. scheduled recordings (additional 'list' button clicks)?

 

There is *no* reason to change any of the command interface to do a cosmetic change on the interface design, and there is *no* reason to do a cosmetic change to the interface that reduces the available information and/or menu choices. In fact, there are *many* reasons not to.

 

At the very least, there should be an option to use the old interface if you want to. Where's the harm in that? There is a lot of software (even prior versions of Windows) that allow you to select the 'classic' interface.

 

Don't give up now! We should *not* settle for a 'new' poorly-designed interface. We should *not* have to 'learn' how to deal with tiles, work-arounds, etc., because we aren't being paid to use the software. To use the equipment in a 'logical and and simple' way is to use a 'logical and simple' interface. Fix the programming command problems, yes. Solve the deleted recordings problem, yes. But let us use the old interface if we want to! Or get someone who knows how to design interfaces to redesign the new one. Or preferably, both. Seriously!

 

Mr. A

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

As for the 'tiles' idea.

While yes, it failed on windows 8..

I am GUESSING they were trying to more emulate OTHER services.

Many things like netflix, and other 'alternative' tv sources are much going that design... so probably trying to mimmic it.

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

BS
I'm a Senior Advisor

@park  Yes, what you speak of sounds very familiar. My earliest programming days were cards, and even telex tape. Boy I had forgotten about tape.  Cut a chunk out of the tape where you want to remove code, duplicate the tape, put three spaces which punches three holes into it, put three spaces before the new code and at end of code, and three new spaces on the remainder. Then stitch it all back together again, interlacing the holes at the end and beginning of the sections.

 

I was a data input person at the time working telex data to railway mainframe in Montreal.  If there was an error in the data entry (you have a rail car going to the wrong place, or the wrong number on the designated car - real big problem, because this code then tells the whole system where to send and find the railcars. When we found the error, we would call programmers in Montreal, and they would send us a code to put ahead of the error put in the old data and the new data.  Basically the code was find this record sent by this terminal and change the data from this to that.  There was a specific way to code this, and originally they were only able to do it until one day, a programmer said, you seem pretty bright (over the phone), here is the code (I said, it did look like I was getting the same code to proceed the changes, just slight changes some times).  He clarified that there were specific changes that related to type of error and how far back you were going. You could not go back more than 24 hours, but he indicated how they create the days code.  So we began fixing our own errors, and about a year later, we were all given the coding methods to make changes as we moved from cards or tape, to monitors with keyboards (dumb terminals to the main frame) - wow we were in the future now.  We also used to save our tapes because each type of run had different headers and trailers, so we could just cut and paste them together with the new data and not have to redo the run headers and trailers which was actually very time consuming and prone to errors.  They did ask us to telex them (live telex terminal to terminal) over telex lines the railways owned and operated. Way back when, before Rogers even came along, there was CN and CP telecommunications, the CNCP, then Cantel and on and on from there. So yeh I have been at it for a day or two.

 

But enough reminiscing - yes if Rogers team want to pick my brain and pseudo code the fixes and identify models of interface, and even test, I would be more than happy to.  I think between me and many others, we have probably given them every thing they need to know (knock on my wooden head), and other than the fact that I can't see the actual code, I can certainly as others have, pretty much tell them where to look.  But to be truthful, I would rather just enjoy my TV and recordings, play with my computer, but boy have I ever enjoyed debugging.

 

So thanks for the story and the ideas. Would love to talk more and get to know you more if you are interested. PM me if you are interested.  I love a good programming story. I have a fair share of my own.  I have even ultimately lost a job over a bad implementation (amongst being downsized, but due to that big error, I was picked early out of the bunch), as a result of a rushed implementation that I said from day one was going to fail if they forced me to keep that schedule.  Good design, engineering, programming, pretesting, debugging, fixing, alpha work, then beta testing, and sometimes you are even forced right back to the drawing board again, say like a programming interface related to a related program turns not to work once you try to integrate - yes integration of all the various commands and programs within our devices is critical.  Generally, I expect that the nextbox is no different than any programming these days. There are modules that are called by user inputs from the remote control, outputs to the screen to change interfaces (all different modules of their own), and calls to change programming to update menu content from the Rogers side, and to update the software and modules, and interfaces for viewing the built in networking features and hardware functioning by the rogers techs who can see our screens and functioning and error messages, and signal strength and so on just by calling up our IP on the box, and logging into see our box.  Same as we can send a reset code to the network that comes back to box and resets it with a reboot.  Programming is very complex these days, and takes great care and extensive testing to get it right and I can assure the people out there that things always go wrong, so I am now taking the position of I will wait and see. I have said enough for now.  I have a second thing to say, but it is in response to someone else - a continuation of this thought, but I need to find his name again.

 

Thanks to you and everyone for working so hard as a user, through all the emotions that we have all had, to make ourselves heard, and being persistent in our requests.  Oh by the way, please fix the font.  BS (initials only - this is now our inside joke).

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

neilpalmer400
I'm a Trusted Contributor

Maybe Tiles are an appropriate look for Navigatr.

After all, bathrooms have tiles, and contain a device for flushing away things we never want to see again.

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

BS
I'm a Senior Advisor

@Mister_A  Just to clarify, I have not given up on pushing that I want a fully logical (from the user's perspective), and simple interface.  I am not a big fan of the tiles, and to be honest, I have never gone to Windows 8 because of the tiles. On a touch screen, I am ok, but my PVR is not a touch screen.    I only say I can learn to live it because I forgot to say, for now until I see the next rollout. Because I am getting tired and I need a break, as probably the Rogers people do in order to get all these requests looked at and seriously looked at. They have said change will come, I am going to wait for that change and then I will be back again if I am still not happy. I have hope that they will be close to getting it right and have it well tested.

 

By the way, when I use on demand to look for movies, I switch back to the alternative menu structure that is still available to get rid of tiles because scrolling up and down through a text list is rapid and efficient.  It is like my programming days. There are lots of GUI (graphic user interfaces) for programmers to drag and drop common code into, you just have to search through lots of menus and screens to find the ones you want. Me, I continued to program in a programming box, learning the new code, typing raw code always, because I can type almost 150 words per minute, and I remember every bit of code I ever learned over the years. By the way, the basic programming has not really changed that much, it has just become more complicated by the integration of everything that we want a single device to do for us.  That is very hard work to achieve successfully. So to continue with a programmers point of view, I want my DOS and Linux and IBM raw code back.  In windows, I still hit the command line for many things and I am very glad that Microsoft has allowed those of us who want to do that to be able to go to what we know, but the reality is that some things I have no choice but to change because they removed it because they didn't even have the programmers to support it anymore. A side story is that most programmers who know their code, do not use the graphic interfaces to program, except maybe when they forget a code, then they go back to the raw code and note it for next time. They get the best of both worlds, but when it comes to our nextbox, our digital tv's, our cars, sometimes change occurs because technology changes and the programmers have no choice but to move forward and yes it creates changes we now have to deal with. So I suspect some things we may have to live with.  All our smartphones, my thermostat, our tablets, and if Microsoft had its choice, would be on tiles. Great for touch screens, but not great for a remote control with so limited input options. But I don't know what programming limitations they have, I leave that to them to hopefully find a balance between what all of us want (and we all don't want the same things), hopefully the programming still lets them access a list view and they can code an option to swap views like we can do with Roger's On Demand for movies.

 

So don't get me wrong, I am not backing off, I neglected to say, that I am waiting for what comes then I will comment more.  I just need a break and for now I can learn to live with it, because right now today, I have to, and I may actually come to love it (doubt it), but I certainly would prefer choices, which may or may not be able to be programmed for.  I have never programmed a PVR, but I have certainly programmed a lot of input and output models and things do go wrong - Murphy of Murphy's law sits as a part of the team of every program implementation team and he is really good at making what can go wrong go wrong, sooner or later, and sometimes all at the same time.

 

But to summarize, As I said to a manager today, you have lost the trust of this 22 year customer, and I am at my limits of what I am willing to put up with. For now I am still talking, and fortunately not losing my temper, which is a good thing for everyone, most importantly me and my family. I also said, I hear your apologies, and I hear and see that you are listening, but I still can't believe it until I see it. I don't like to be that way with any provider of my services.  I enjoy being a happy customer, but right now I have not been.

 

So having said all that, I want to add a personal note to this, as many others have.  My decision to back off for a while is completely selfish, and also caring for all of you and the Rogers teams who are clearly working very hard at this and other issues.  I have been on this forum on about 5 issues in the last month, and that is more than I have been in my whole experience in 22 years (of course by phone years ago - I like talking so we can work with emotion and feelings of both sides.   Why am I really taking this position as I have mentioned before - I am a lucky person who has severe depression, servere anxiety and PTSD to boot.  I say lucky because I have had the opportunity to learn to deal with these battles and know when to call it quits for a while to recover, and when to return to the rear lines to recover for the next battle, and sometimes just to go home and let others take on the job.  Yes, I have served in the military, so that is why I framed that section in military terms.  It is how I understand the world.  A lot of us have been on these Nextbox front lines for quite a while on this one, as well as the people on Rogers side too. I need a break, as I am sure some of you do too, and I have no doubt that the heads of the programmers are spinning.  It doesn't matter how it happened, what should or should have not been done.  Now it is time to move on, let them figure out where they are going and for me trust that they will do their best, knowing very well, there will be more bugs.  And we really do not want their heads spinning when they need to have them deep into very complex coding and bug fixing and then finding people to test it, while trying to get it out as fast as possible.  I don't want them to rush, I want them to do their best, and that is why I have decided to back off, at least for now.

 

I stay strong on the fact that I don't like the tiles, give us the option to use the classic interfaces (if they haven't stripped that code to death in the change). I hope not because sometimes unfortunately, there is not going back. I also want a bigger font, and predictability in what happens when I push a button as well as confidence that my recordings will be there.

 

So there it is, it has been a fun battle, I have learned a lot, I have got to work my intellectual brain that has been stagnant for quite a while and I have been able to work my therapy interactional skills and it has been a lot of fun. 

 

I leave it to the rest of you to carry on for now.  I am actually not going to log on unless I learn a new issue, and until the new rollout has benn done.

 

My best and hopes to all of you.

 

Bruce (now you know my first name) S.

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

User2014
I Plan to Stick Around
Number 5 from my earlier list seems to have been addressed. I can now record the sjow being watched by one press of the red record button. I'll take the small win and hope now for the old list style menus back!

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

KWoo
I Plan to Stick Around

I believe there was supposed to be some kind of announcement today via the Community Blog. I haven't heard or seen anything.....did I miss it or is it still coming? If it's the latter, do we have a timeline on when we'll get the big announcement? 

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

park
I'm an Advisor

@User2014 wrote:
Number 5 from my earlier list seems to have been addressed. I can now record the sjow being watched by one press of the red record button. I'll take the small win and hope now for the old list style menus back!

I think that was there since day 1, at least on NB3s.

You can cancel it as well, with the same button.

 

 

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

Mister_A
I Plan to Stick Around

Dear Bruce,

 

I completely understand -- it's why I haven't been back until now also. We've had our say, now let's see what Rogers does. Since you're a programmer, it is natural that you would be focused on the code. I've also programmed, but really, I design *things*, so I focus on the interface. You are correct that they could simply have used an off-the-shelf interface (menus, perhaps?) and plugged in the commands, but they didn't.

 

The three or four of us here with design experience, I'm sure, could do a better job if we got together.

 

From my personal experience, for the majority of users, the interface is more important than the specific functionality, since most users want to *use* the product, not necessarily understand the intricacies of the command structure. Big advantage for a simple, logical arrangement of controls. Those of us with a technical background may understand what's under the skin, but the skin is important -- it's the connection to the non-technical user, as I'm sure you appreciate.

 

I was reacting to your statement about we users 'learning' whatever counterintuitive screens and command structure are foisted upon us. I object to the inherent design flaws, amply enumerated by yourself, NeilPalmer400 and others, but I also understand that they have to fix what they can fix to try and recover, so my message was in no way an indictment of you or your comments, just that we should *not* let them off the hook for this.

 

I have only one question (for anyone who can answer): What *additional* functionality, or *improved* performance, has this so-called upgrade delivered?

 

Frankly, I don't see any, so why do it at all, if it's just a fashion statement?

 

I am also waiting to see what happens, but so far I'd be satisfied with the previous system, sans upgrades.

 

We will both wait and see. Thank you all for your interesting posts.

 

All the best,

Mr. A

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

neilpalmer400
I'm a Trusted Contributor

@BS wrote:

 

I want my DOS and Linux and IBM raw code back.  In windows, I still hit the command line for many things and I am very glad that Microsoft has allowed those of us who want to do that to be able to go to what we know,


 

Bruce,

 

BINGO ! You’ve hit upon the answer to one of the big issues with Navigatr, the ability to find your recorded programs easily.

A Linux command line interface so we can all use grep.

Gotta be easier than what you have to go through now.  Smiley LOL

 

Neil (another programmer) Palmer

Re: New Nextbox Navigator

park
I'm an Advisor

 

 

I have only one question (for anyone who can answer): What *additional* functionality, or *improved* performance, has this so-called upgrade delivered?

 

 

Frankly, I don't see any, so why do it at all, if it's just a fashion statement?

 I am also waiting to see what happens, but so far I'd be satisfied with the previous system, sans upgrades.

 We will both wait and see. Thank you all for your interesting posts.

 

All the best,

Mr A

 

(Help: pls PM me if you know how to  unstick my text )