How to record series on Navigtr with PVR currently distributed to Whity/Oshawa and area

[BS]

I posted this as a separate item because I am hoping that people can guide me on how to reliably set up a series recording.

In advance of the new shows, I tried to set up the New Late Show with Colbert to see how it would go.

I do not think the feature of record any time is working.

Here is how I prefer to set it up - Choose the show

Record series

Options set as new episodes only

this timeslot only

Any day of the week - in order to get the whole week of shows without need to record a series for each day

Save until I erase

access is unlocked

Start on time

Stop on time

Note that with the show we are trying it is the Late Night with Colbert - starts 11:35 - 12:37

I had already set these up last night, but then it didn't show in the list, or in the menu with the 3 red dots.

I tried using the tablet version, and was able to set it up for each day.

I then found this morning that I had 2 copies of both shows - I am guessing only - no way to confirm at this moment from PC app, tablet app or the Navigtr list app - currently now recordings show for the series, but if I try to record it again, from any of the three apps, I get the message that the recorded series is already set up.

Note, in settings, the default of any time rather than this time slot only will set to any time from the settings button on the remote, but when you go into set up the recording options, it always defaults to this time slot only - not sure if it will eve do this.  Relevant when shows move around, say like when the world series kicks in etc.

I deleted all of the shows and tried to start all over again, did set it up again, but this time, not showing on any app, so have now idea whether the recording.

No consistancy in this at all.  It has been almost 6 weeks since this version was rolled out with all its problems, where are we now in getting things fixed. It is driving me nuts and she has said that she is about ready to just get rid of the box    Ohh when the problems effect my wife's viewing, then I am in real trouble.  I am supposed to be the one who knows how to fix these things, and I am at a loss. Hopefully people have solutions for the moment.

Could people list any successful experiences that you may have had, and how you set things up.  At least I am hoping for a way to get some predictability in knowing that recordings are being done even though they may not be showing anywhere on the menu or list as scheduled recordings.

Let's keep this thread as clean as possible in terms of discussion on what works and what doesn't work and I expect that there may be many variations too.  I will also do my best to keep my criticisms and complaints out of here - I will do that in the other thread.

Thanks anybody,  Bruce

***Edited Labels***

[BS]

This piece of feedback is for the programmers and anyone that may follow the technical description I am about to make.

The User Interface of any database, of which the list function, or the presentation of the red dots on the menu item of the show, or the listings of scheduled recordings is a user interace will theoretically be based upon what is known as a one to many relationship in the database (where all the index information is recorded on the box).  

The one is the name of the show which is the tile - the many is the recordings, and the scheduled shows - therefore two types of relationships of one to many (the tile to the recordings, and the tile to the series, or single scheduled recording).

I suspect that these links are being lost or not established consistently, and the boxes may actually reset the links at various times (for example, if you set a recording right now with a series, it doesn't show in the tiles until afterwards).

Possibly that is what happened when I set in the recordings for my show last night - the recording for Friday night was still in process, and I ended up with two because I had recorded from the box, and from the tablet app and after 12:30 they appeared).  Then when I deleted all - by the way, that only recorded one day at a time, not all - not sure why - I eventually had all recordings taken out and then the tile disappears.  Then I try to put them back I did the first one of Monday as a series, it doesn't show in tiles or the menu, so I try a different date, or the same date and it says it is already setup.

This suggests a refresh issue with the tiles and menu, which as I described we already know that the tiles and menu doesn't refresh until the end of a recording, but these are for future.

There may also be an issue of what are called orphaned records - this is when the tile is removed - (the parent record), and the recorded or scheduled recordings references are still present (the child records).  If the link to the parent record is lost, or the parent record is gone, then you have orphaned records.

These are just theoretical thoughts of what may be going on with this UI presentation of recordings - could be refresh issues, but could also be database field relationships resulting in orphaned records.

For those that don't understand databases, imagine a family tree with a parent and children,  if the parent dies or disappears, then the children are orphaned, and if there is a record somewhere that shows the parent and children still around, that view says they are not orphaned (this is the user interface).  Think of a family tree program, if you remove a parent from the database, the children become associated with just one parent, and if both parents are gone, you have records of children hanging around.  If you at a later day, realize that oops, I shouldn't have deleted the parent, I should have marked them divorced, or deceased, so you put them back, then add the children again, rather than linking the previous children, you end up with multiple records of the same children, known as duplicates and getting them all linked and cleaned up requires careful fixing - and refresh of the interface is critical for the user not to duplicate the process again if they think they haven't fixed it.

Hope this is food for thought for the programmers - I am sure they have looked at it, hope that they can get it cleared up soon - I would suggest that the pvr functioning is one of the priority things to get fixed.  Good luck.

And to others, please do give us your experiences and workarounds and how do you get it to work.

By the way, I set up a new recording for the same series of Late night on a different channel way up the dial, and it did all that it was supposed to, further leading me to think that the data is in the box and it just isn't refreshing consistently so we can see it. The one on the other channel still does not show, but I can't add to it because it says it is there, just nowhere to be found on the user interface on any device or app.

I also interestingly found a recorded series for "the Blacklist", which is a series recording we had set up for last season,  and never deleted as the season was done, so that was still sitting in the database of series recordings from before the new version (I refuse to call it an upgrade) , but not showing on the listings, but it did finally show up on the menu, but still not on the listing tiles.  Go figure?

Bruce

Bruce

[roxandtreez]

@BS

There needs to be some discussion of the bugs because to some extent they explain why some procedures are necessary.

Getting recordings to work consistently is difficult because there were bugs in the previous version of the software and now Navigatr bugs have been placed on top the previous bugs.

On top of that, changes or errors in the Guide affect whether a recording is done.  Generally, if the start time of the recording changes in the Guide by as little as one minute from the scheduled time slot, then the recording will not take place.  However, the end time has no effect, and even a two hour episode will record as long as the start times match.  The new indicator in the Guide is a bit more accurate than it used to be, but episodes are still marked incorrectly from time to time (both old marked as new and new not marked as such).  You will also find that the descriptions in the Guide change over the week, often having a generic description early in the week which is replaced by a specific description as the scheduled date approaches.

Under the previous version,  I have had experiences, especially after a Rogers download and reboot, where a scheduled series recording disappears, but cannot be re-scheduled because the box considers it already in the schedule.  A power off/power on reboot usually fixed this.

A problem introduced with Navigatr is that tiles represent what Navigatr considers to be a series, so even identical titles recorded at different times cannot be sorted together.  In the case of some series where two episodes are run back to back, the episodes will only appear in one tile if you record the series with the <any time> option.

Another possible Navigatr problem seems to involve dropping the final episode of a series because the series is no longer in the Guide.  That won't be much of a problem until nearer to December, if series go into hiatus.

One issue that has not occurred for me in the past few months has been having the software shift the channel to a different channel number.  Back in April, I started recording on the lowest channel number that carried the program.  Before, even if I recorded Space on channel 50, it would get rescheduled onto channel 281.  Lately, the channel I schedule is the channel used to record.

With all that said, here is how I schedule series.

First, I have every channel that I watch regularly selected as a favourite. This only comes to 25 channels.  Partly this is because Navigatr doesn't let me hide channels unless I want a random power on channel, but also it makes checking the schedule much easier.

Hitting the Guide button twice will show the guide information only for your favourite channels.  Each morning I go through the Guide and check that series that I previously scheduled for the day are still scheduled, and look for new shows that might be interesting.  Fortunately most of what I record is scheduled between 9:00 and 11:00, so there is not much left/right scrolling, and I can quickly scroll through the 25 channels with page up/down.

When I find a new series, I set it up as <All Episodes> <This Day> <Any Time>, unless it is something like The Late Show, which is set up as <Any Day> to get all episodes for the week.  For single items, like movies, I just default to the scheduled time, and don't usually extend the recording unless it is a sports event, or it immediately follows a sports event that might run over. 

Next I review the recordings from the previous night.  First, I need to weed out duplicates that occurred because of the <Any Time> choice.  I can delete episodes that have already been watched or recorded.  Channels like BBC Canada, FX and FXX produce lots of duplicates.  Next, I try to check whether all episodes I thought were going to record actually got recorded.  This gives me a chance to find a repeat showing on a different day, or pick it up on demand if available.

Yes, it is a lot of work, and I do this on two 9865's so that if one fails, I still have another as backup.  Often I will record different channels on the two different boxes if possible in case Rogers messes up.  I have had an episode of Defiance where only the background sound was played, but none of the dialog.  For the premier episodes of Louie season 5 and The Comedians, Rogers broadcast the episodes without any sound at all.  All this work is necessary if you want to actually watch what you intended while on Rogers.

I do have a lot of time on my hands, and I do watch a lot of TV.  I record more than I watch, because I will try a new series and then drop it if I am not interested.  Sometimes a series hangs around for quite a while because I haven't had time to watch it.

I don't expect this will apply to many people, as it is quite a time commitment and a lot of what I record is not worth the effort.  Every once in a while, however, there is a gem that I am glad I did not miss.

[BS]

@roxandtreez  I tried your idea - the show that kept saying that it was already there, I turned the box off and turned it back on and I was then able to set up the recording.

That suggests to me that the recordings settings are being stored either in temporary RAM memory and on the drive or some other storage model.  And that when we view the show we want to delete, it pulls it up into a temporary storage, and when we delete it, it is still sitting up in temporary storage.  By the way a reboot from trouble shooting did not release the deleted recording information that claims it is still there, only unplugging it did, which sugggests that it is stored and held as long as power is being provided to the memory storage, but that in the programming somewhere, the actions are not releasing the memory completely.  Since it is gone totally after the unplug, I suspect that it has been deleted from probably the drive storage, but has not been deleted from the temporary memory storage systems.

This may be programming, or it may be an issue with how the new Espial interface and RDK and software stack interfaces with the legacy box, the PVR functions, and memory storage and dumps.  Espial (the producer of this interface) says they can layer it on top of all legacy boxes, but each cable company has taken different programming directions with their legacy boxes, so I am sure that it is a real challenge to get the Espial software products to interface with the many types of boxes and configurations, as well as user configurations out there.

But bottom line, thank you for the advice on how to program series.  Yes a lot of work, but I have the time.  I did the series and any (not new only), any day, any time and seem to have got the whole Late shows.  Now to check tommorow and the next day and see what happens and what is programmed each day.

Hopefully the thoughts around the "bug" or limitations of the new software configurations on legacy boxes will help guide Rogers techs and Espial or what ever third parties are involved in moving forward.

I will let you know how it goes.

Thanks Bruce

[BS]

Well, having said all I said before about unplugging the box, I was trying to change up another recording - I had duplicate for channel 3 and channel 517 for the late night show - so decided to get rid of one of them.  Big mistake.  Now I have a recording showing as monday and tuesday on 517, nothing shows for Wed, nothing shows for channel three.

I give up and will be using your approach - check every day to see what appears to be recording, if not showing, then, try to set it up.  If it says it is there, option one, believe it is there and check later to see if recorded, or reboot box and see if that clears it and then try again.

It is kind of roll of the dice.

My new motto - I just want to be able to predictably record my shows and watch them with confidence that it will happen.

Maybe each time it goes around, I should contact tech support, put it on the record, everytime that it happens, at least there is a formal record of what I am living through, and have them open tickets.  If they close them because there is nothing they can really do, I escalate and just spend each day this happens doing this.

Not my idea of fun, but maybe I should start making it difficult for them until they give me some honest answers that I can live with, or fix it.

I am about at my wits end.

Here's to hoping our recordings work next week.

New season with many conflicts every night for viewing requiring the need for recordings begins in full force next Monday.  The clock is ticking.

Bruce

[OLDYELLR]

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@BS wrote:

I had duplicate for channel 3 and channel 517 for the late night show - so decided to get rid of one of them.  Big mistake.  Now I have a recording showing as monday and tuesday on 517, nothing shows for Wed, nothing shows for channel three.

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Channel 3 and  517 are the same channel, Global TV.  When the popular lower channels went HD, they were added as new channels in the 500 series, but tuning the familiar lower channels on an HD TV actually showed higher HD version whild displaying the lower channel number. At least that's how it is on my SA8300HD.  When you tune 3 on the Nextboxes, does it show 3 or 517?

[BS]

That makes sense to me now - as to what it displays, it showed originally HDGBL (no channel), and 3 HDGBL.  I really don't know anything anymore. It is a plain mess, period.  My apologies to those who don't like the use of the period  but that is how I want to say it, and I challenge anyone to convince me that it not a mess.  I am going to move to describing my experiences, so they may help others and maybe they can help me.  I have nothing more to say and don't want to test anymore. I have finally realized there is no understanding this mess of a implementation of new software design on top of legacy hardware and software designs and configurations, Rogers implemented and user chosen (configurations that is).  It is pretty tough to get new technology to run on legacy setups, and we the poor users who have this dog's breakfast, now have to just live with it, wondering what will come next? Or at least that is the way it feels.

Have a good week everybody.

The real test begins next week with all the new shows.

Bruce

[roxandtreez]

@BS

I agree it is confusing.  If you wanted to record The Late Show on two different channels you would have to record on 3 (Global) and 16 (CBS).

Then you would get into the simsub issues, because the Global signal would be used to overrride the CBS signal.  I don't know if you have ever noticed, but The Tonight Show recorded on NBC loses a few seconds of the opening credits every night just before the band is introduced because that is when the signal is cut over from NBC to CTV2.  You never see the name of the musical guest.  It is a small annoyance in the midst of all the other Rogers annoyances.

As for your idea to report every problem and open a ticket, unless Rogers has changed their procedures you would be wasting your time.  A couple of years ago I encountered this issue.  If you are the first person to report a problem, even if it is a major problem, Rogers will close the problem as an "isolated incident".  It is only when there are a number of customers calling in with the same issue that it starts to get attention.  Even then, Rogers cannot link various customers' reports of a problem unless they set up a "master" ticket number to which all the others can be linked.  Once a master is set up, then customers who call in can request that their ticket be linked to the master.  However, there is no easy way, except through forums, to get the master ticket number out to customers so they can be linked.

Even if you got a ticket set up and escalated, it won't help you to solve the problem.  I have mentioned before in other threads that I have had a problem open with second level support since October last year.  Every week, I get an automated call telling me that they are still working on my problem and will notify me when it is resolved.  Now last November and December, support came up with two possible work-arounds for the problem.  You would think that someone would have contacted me to suggest that I try the work-arounds, but the only way I found out about them was by calling in to see if there were any updates to my ticket.  By the way, the work-arounds did not help in my case. 

Save youself from the frustration and only report problems that you can reproduce consistently.  Even then, first level support will generally suggest either replacing the box or trying a factory reset, both of which cause you to lose all recordings.

[BS]

@roxandtreez  Thanks for the warning about tickets and tech support - guess my problem is that I am used to the industry standard of issues management that I used for all of my contracted support services - they gave us the ability to create our own tickets, and we used key words that linked them to allow them to know quickly about common issues and then it allowed them to be able to prioritize.

Yeh, I think I have heard that one before - reboot the box, or bring it in for exchange, send out a tech, and yes, I had two open tickets for almost three years until I finally called a senior person because they were showing on my myaccount - they did put tickets there for a while to see. I didn't even remember what they were, and when he read them to me, I replied, oh yeh, I got that resolved, but guess your staff never marked it resolved.  It actually took about six months to get someone to actually close the tickets.

It just a thought on how to pressure the system a bit to let us know what is going on, but as you say, not worth the time and frustration, and I think we have enough of that already.

Thanks, Bruce

I get to see tonight whether late night records - and thank you so much for that issue of cut over chops - have always wondered about that one - never clued into the shift between networks - I had that happening with a number of shows I recorded last year and there was also that period when you never really knew what channel it would put it on.

Ahh for the life of a VCR, or my old digital standalone PVR. Yeh, there was the reality that the new model protects copyright and licensing, but it is all so hard to just make it work as a PVR - My digital PVR did very well grabbing the correct show at the correct time (sure it couldn't deal with a change in time for the show). And back when I knew people who used Tivo, it worked reliability all the time.  The concepts of how the PVR should work are not complicated - how they have turned this coding exercise of laying a new software over a model that has moved from SARA to RTN, and now the new software company into such a bowl of spaghetti, is beyond me.

Oh well, life goes on.

Bruce

[Kidbd7]

Easy answer. 1) Look for your show by going to guide, B (change date) 

 2) when date is in the future and you click on it, you will have the option to record series

3) record series