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Degradation in upload speed

lem1
I Plan to Stick Around

Hello,

 

I have the 250u ignite package and both download and upload speeds have been reliable. I have a mixture of wired and wirless devices, all with gigabit lan cards, and/or ac wireless cards. Modem is in bridge mode and I have a decent AC router. So, my upload speed is now a max of 1 Mbps compared to the 20 - 22 I was getting. The behaviour is the same on all of my PCs. I made sure I tried each in isolation. I also reset the modem so I could look at the stats, and tried a speedtest connected directly to the modem. The result was the same.

 

Below is a picture of of the modem stats. To my untrained eye, they look okay. I started an online chat with a tech, but I declined to give hom access to my pc, and he said he will have to submit a ticket to engineering. My download speeds are fine, and the cable tv is working normally. Do the modem stats show anything amiss? What are the magic words to say to a tech? I do not want to give remote control of any of my PCs so that someone can empty my browser cache and reset network adaptors. There are the privacy and security aspects as well. At any rate, my issue is not PC related. Any idea of what could be causing the (very) slow upload speed?

 

Thanks for reading.

 

stats2.png

 

***Edited Labels***

188 REPLIES 188

Re: Degradation in upload speed

Wireless_Roamer
I Plan to Stick Around

Update: Barrie, Ontario. My Internet has been problem free for a little over a week. Download over 200 Mbps and upload 17.3. It has been stable and performing as advertised. Sorry to hear some are still having issues. I've noticed Rogers has given me a credit for the inconvenience and this is much appreciated. Dealing with Rogers from a personal standpoint has always been a good experience for me. Yes, they have had some technical issues from time to time but overall a good solid service. My only request would be for Rogers to be more upfront on the cause of some

of the issues that occur from time to time. Good luck to everyone. Keep reporting and hopefully, you get a resolution to your particular issue.

Re: Degradation in upload speed

Recently I installed the 500u which has 20Mbits upload and as I have seen so far

some days my upload is not even 10mbits.

Assuming that Rogers will fix the upload problem, I am wondering if there is any plan

for Rogers to increase the upload to something more reasonable i.e 100Mbits.

These days people upload a lot of things.

A connection of 500/100 would be much better.

 

Re: Degradation in upload speed

Nadernt
I Plan to Stick Around

So far my connection has been really stable for the past week or so. Glad that the problems got fixed!

Re: Degradation in upload speed

Philip360
I've Been Here Awhile

Slow upload speed and packet loss, node issue?

 

Hello all,

 

I have been experiencing slow upload speed and packet loss for the past couple of months using CGN3 modem on 75/10 cable service. It comes and goes and I have been calling Rogers so often than they started to recognize me who I am when I call in the evenings lol. I usually detect it when I play Overwatch and the game starts alarming about packet loss, then I go to speedtestnet and the upload speed is 2/3 slower than what I am paying for. Download speed is not affected at all however. Running Ping Plotter also confirms packets loss as well. After a week or so usually it fixes itself until next time. I am getting tired every time when I call to be asked to remove my router and run without it - issue persist - rebooting, resetting the gateway does not help either.

 

My stats are also within spec. I had tons of technicians showing up and they couldn't find anything on my end. Level 2 technicians are always closing the ticket every time with some technicality missing from the L1 person.

 

This leads me to believe its a node issue, same thing happen late last summer as well, but it got fixed and working fine until this June. High pings below are due to Puma 6 issue...I presume lol.

 

Speedtest:

 

Ping Plotter:

Target Name: www.google.com
IP: 172.217.0.228
Date/Time: 7/29/2018 8:20:01 PM - 7/29/2018 8:30:01 PM

Hop Sent PL% Min Max Avg Host Name / [IP]
1 601 0 0.31 17.99 0.56 router.asus.com [192.168.1.1]
2 601 0 9.89 157.24 25.54 72.140.94.129 [72.140.94.129]
3 601 0 9.16 172.12 21.11 8083-dgw02.wlfdle.rmgt.net.rogers.com [67.231.221.113]
4 312 1 10.21 258.11 23.43 0-4-0-8-cgw01.bloor.rmgt.net.rogers.com [209.148.233.177]
5 312 1 9.55 207.00 25.04 209.148.235.26 [209.148.235.26]
6 598 53 9.98 159.74 23.07 72.14.222.87 [72.14.222.87]
7 601 1 10.12 165.13 23.60 108.170.250.241 [108.170.250.241]
8 311 1 9.56 201.02 23.66 108.170.226.217 [108.170.226.217]
9 601 1 9.64 191.27 22.91 www.google.com [172.217.0.228]

 

Line stats:

Downstream Overview
Port ID Frequency (MHz) Modulation Signal strength (dBmV) Channel ID Signal noise ratio (dB)
1 693000000 256QAM -3.200 23 40.366
2 579000000 256QAM -2.200 5 40.946
3 585000000 256QAM -2.300 6 40.946
4 591000000 256QAM -2.700 7 40.366
5 597000000 256QAM -2.600 8 40.366
6 603000000 256QAM -3.000 9 40.946
7 609000000 256QAM -2.900 10 40.946
8 615000000 256QAM -3.000 11 40.366
9 621000000 256QAM -3.500 12 40.366
10 633000000 256QAM -3.600 13 40.366
11 639000000 256QAM -3.500 14 40.366
12 645000000 256QAM -3.900 15 40.366
13 651000000 256QAM -3.700 16 40.366
14 657000000 256QAM -3.600 17 40.366
15 663000000 256QAM -3.300 18 40.366
16 669000000 256QAM -3.700 19 38.983
17 675000000 256QAM -3.600 20 38.983
18 681000000 256QAM -3.100 21 40.366
19 687000000 256QAM -3.300 22 40.366
20 303000000 256QAM 3.000 1 43.377
21 699000000 256QAM -3.000 24 40.946
22 705000000 256QAM -3.400 25 40.366
23 711000000 256QAM -4.100 26 38.605
24 717000000 256QAM -5.400 27 38.605
Upstream Overview
Port ID Frequency (MHz) Modulation Signal strength (dBmV) Channel ID BandWidth
1 23700000 ATDMA - 64QAM 37.250 2 6400000
2 38596000 ATDMA - 64QAM 41.500 3 3200000
3 30596000 ATDMA - 64QAM 38.500 1 6400000

Re: Degradation in upload speed

@Philip360 your stats aren't terribly bad.  Can you have a look at the back of the modem to determine exactly what model of CGN3xxxx you have.  There should be a product sticker at the back of the modem.  

 

With Hitron modems, running Pingplotter can cause false packet loss indications.  That's due to a firmware timing issue within the modem.  To accurately determine if there is a packet loss problem, you need to run a ping to the Cable Modem Termination System, which is the IP address after the router or modem, depending on which device you happen to be running.  In your case, assuming that the modem is in Bridge mode and the router is in full router mode, then IP address #2 is the CMTS.  Run a command line ping to that address and let it run for a considerable amount of time.  I usually run 24 hour tests.  Over the course of a 24 hour period, you should only see somewhere in the range of 10 to 20 lost packets, somewhere around 0.01% or so.  If you have packet loss issues, and they show up in the ping test (not Pingplotter) then the issue is usually with the external cable and/or connectors.  If you are in a period where the packet loss is showing up, call tech support and ask the CSR to ping the modem from the CMTS or ping the CMTS from the modem.  Keep your ping test running.  When you see packet loss, the CSR should also see packet loss with his or her test.  The question at that point is, is this a single line issue (yours) or an issue between the local tap and the CMTS or something else.  Its up to the CSR to determine that in order to dispatch the correct tech, contractor, Rogers or Maintenance crew.  Keep at this and don't let up on tech support.  Put them on speed dial and don't be afraid to use it.  

 

Having said that, you have a high time shown for the router return times.  17.99 ms is really excessive for a return time from the router.  They should all be below 1 ms.  You should probably run an extended ping session to the router, looking for high time returns and if they keep occurring, the question is "why?".  There are also a couple of Rogers servers which aren't responding as they should.  209.148.233.177 and 209.148.235.26 are returning about half of the pings.  Understanding the argument that ISP servers are set so they don't respond to pings, my response is that I don't agree with that.  If those servers are always losing a good portion of the pings, that should be reported to the Level II tech support.  He or she won't be able to fix them, but, a report can be sent to the NOC or engineering staff to have a look at the issue.   

 

The CGN3 series modem should be ok in terms of IPV4 ICMP (ping) latency thru the modem, just depends on which modem you have.  That can be seen by looking at the return times from the CMTS.  They should be in the 8 to 13 milli-second range.  If your local node has capacity issues in high use times, that return time could increase up to the 150 to 200 ms range.  If so, and its persistent, then you have an issue with the load at the CMTS.  The Level II techs can tell you what the load is on any given CMTS.  Level I techs don't have access to that info. 



Re: Degradation in upload speed

Philip360
I've Been Here Awhile

Thank you for replying. First the non-technical part, I had a technician scheduled to come and investigate today and I was called that he can come early, then himself called me he is 10 minutes away, then he called 2 minutes after to tell me he is not coming because he is dispatched somewhere and then the dispatch person called to tell me the technician is "sick" and we have to reschedule for Wednesday because apparently they do not have anyone available for tomorrow - glorious Rogers service right here!

 

Now  the technical part, my modem is HITRON CGN3AMF and I know you guys are more network savvy than I am but for me its hard to believe Ping plotter is the one to be faulted. It was Overwatch the video game complaining that I have packet loss, it is always the first thing to ring the alarm as it is very sensitive. Here are my results with the built-in ping utility and removing my router so I am directly connected to the modem in gateway mode and pinging the node (2nd hop after the gateway which is the 1st):

 

Ping statistics for 72.141.22.129:
Packets: Sent = 595, Received = 590, Lost = 5 (0% loss),
Approximate round trip times in milli-seconds:
Minimum = 10ms, Maximum = 522ms, Average = 29ms

 

Trace route as proof:

 

Tracing route to INTEL_CE_LINUX [72.141.22.129]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 * 1 ms <1 ms hitronhub.home [192.168.1.1]
2 21 ms 21 ms 10 ms INTEL_CE_LINUX [72.141.22.129]

Trace complete.

 

Bonus - tcping external utility results that uses TCP protocol rather ICMP to "ping" a host on a specific port - 80 by default and I used google.com:

 

Ping statistics for 172.217.1.14:80
474 probes sent.
472 successful, 2 failed. (0.42% fail)
Approximate trip times in milli-seconds (successful connections only):
Minimum = 10.574ms, Maximum = 607.748ms, Average = 29.830ms

 

The obligatory speedtest (after the ping tests complete, not during):

 

The suggestion that I have to keep calling Rogers/Fido simply is not a solution, as much as I want to get this fixed I am way too obsessed about it that something like this should require, I will simply cut my loses and move on to the next available Internet technology.

 

I hope by posting here someone from the more senior technical staff will get some interest in this and escalate my problem.

 

Re: Degradation in upload speed

Philip360
I've Been Here Awhile

And just like that after 9pm everything cleared, no reboots no resets. It will be good until next time, it could go south again, tomorrow, next week or the one after you never know. If this does not scream - "a node issue problem" then I do not know what. The tech will come on Wednesday on my rescheduled appointment, he will see no issue and the cycle will begin again

 

Target Name: 8.8.8.8
IP: 8.8.8.8
Date/Time: 7/30/2018 10:54:44 PM - 7/30/2018 11:04:44 PM

Hop Sent PL% Min Max Avg Host Name / [IP]
1 601 0 0.57 7.88 1.95 hitronhub.home [192.168.1.1]
2 601 0 9.00 162.37 26.35 INTEL_CE_LINUX [72.141.8.129]
3 601 0 8.61 205.12 22.94 8083-dgw01.wlfdle.rmgt.net.rogers.com [67.231.221.109]
4 601 0 9.00 154.66 23.57 INTEL_CE_LINUX [209.148.235.109]
5 601 0 7.53 158.79 25.28 INTEL_CE_LINUX [209.148.235.34]
6 599 100 0 0 0 [-]
7 601 0 9.00 154.03 24.81 INTEL_CE_LINUX [108.170.250.225]
8 601 0 7.39 182.92 25.89 INTEL_CE_LINUX [108.170.227.171]
9 601 0 9.26 162.21 23.80 8.8.8.8 [8.8.8.8]

 

 

Downstream Overview
Port IDFrequency (MHz)ModulationSignal strength (dBmV)Channel IDSignal noise ratio (dB)
1693000000256QAM-2.8002340.946
2579000000256QAM-1.900540.946
3585000000256QAM-2.100640.946
4591000000256QAM-2.500740.366
5597000000256QAM-2.400840.366
6603000000256QAM-2.700940.366
7609000000256QAM-2.6001040.366
8615000000256QAM-2.7001140.366
9621000000256QAM-3.2001240.366
10633000000256QAM-3.3001338.983
11639000000256QAM-3.2001438.983
12645000000256QAM-3.6001538.983
13651000000256QAM-3.4001640.366
14657000000256QAM-3.3001738.605
15663000000256QAM-2.9001840.366
16669000000256QAM-3.3001938.983
17675000000256QAM-3.2002038.983
18681000000256QAM-2.8002140.366
19687000000256QAM-3.0002238.983
20303000000256QAM3.200144.626
21699000000256QAM-2.6002440.366
22705000000256QAM-3.0002540.366
23711000000256QAM-3.6002638.983
24717000000256QAM-4.8002738.605
Upstream Overview
Port IDFrequency (MHz)ModulationSignal strength (dBmV)Channel IDBandWidth
123700625ATDMA - 64QAM37.25026400000
238596000ATDMA - 64QAM41.75033200000
330596000ATDMA - 64QAM38.25016400000

Re: Degradation in upload speed

Internet Upload Speed Issues

 

Hello,

For the duration of the summer, we have been plagued with <2mbps upload speeds despite paying for the 100/10 package.

Has anyone encountered similar issues, or successfully gone through the process of fixing the issue with Rogers?

I have been in contact with them throughout the summer, and have yet to see any fix in service quality.

Any feedback would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

Re: Degradation in upload speed

@jacobkutty can you log into the modem, navigate to the STATUS .... DOCSIS WAN tab, copy the lower signal level table, from the Downstream Overview, all the way to the bottom right of the table.  Paste that into a post so we can have a look at it.  The copy and paste process will paste in the text contents of that table.  



Re: Degradation in upload speed

Qubit
I Plan to Stick Around

loss of upload speed (while donwload speed is fine)

 

Hello,

 

I have an ignite 1 Gbs connection that supposedly grants 30Mbps upload speed. I was getting that until a week ago, suddenly the upload speed has dropped to 20Mbps. It is strange becuase download speed is still 900Mbps like nothing happened. I called to rogers and they said that their diagnostics shows that the network works and yields 30Mbps (I am not sure what they actually tested... does anyone know? did they test form my modem to them? if so the problem would be past my modem)

 

Is it normal to get a drop in upload speed while the download speed remains the same? What should I do? I live in a condo and it's a real nuisance to find a problem if it's physically located in the building... I hope I can solve this myself

 

Thanks!

Re: Degradation in upload speed

RogersCilio
Retired Moderator
Retired Moderator

Hey @Qubit,

 

Thanks for posting your question. I rely heavily on my upload for work so I know how annoying and inconvenient degraded service can be. You've certainly come to the right place for help!

 

We have a vast amount of knowledgable users and Resident Experts who can help troubleshoot this with you. I'll tag in a few of them :). @Datalink @gp-se @Gdkitty @robindp 

 

Community, feel free to chime in and assist a fellow Community member :).

 

Cheers,

RogersCilio

Re: Degradation in upload speed

gp-se
I'm an Advisor

@Qubit wrote:

loss of upload speed (while donwload speed is fine)

 

Hello,

 

I have an ignite 1 Gbs connection that supposedly grants 30Mbps upload speed. I was getting that until a week ago, suddenly the upload speed has dropped to 20Mbps. It is strange becuase download speed is still 900Mbps like nothing happened. I called to rogers and they said that their diagnostics shows that the network works and yields 30Mbps (I am not sure what they actually tested... does anyone know? did they test form my modem to them? if so the problem would be past my modem)

 

Is it normal to get a drop in upload speed while the download speed remains the same? What should I do? I live in a condo and it's a real nuisance to find a problem if it's physically located in the building... I hope I can solve this myself

 

Thanks!


@Qubit

Have you tried testing during peak hours and non-peak hours to see if its a congestion issue? Also have you tired using different sped test websites and servers to see if it makes a difference?

Re: Degradation in upload speed

Qubit
I Plan to Stick Around

Yes I have. I had a rogers technician come to my place and after testing said that it is a building problem, that the upstream signal is low. I am not sure how to proceed from here since no one seemed to have done anything about it. Do you have any recommendations?

Re: Degradation in upload speed

Datalink
Resident Expert
Resident Expert

@Qubit did the tech indicate that he or she was going to raise a ticket to have the situation looked at by a senior tech or maintenance crew?  You should be able to call tech support and ask the Customer Service Rep if there are any notes or recommendations made from the tech's visit.  That should be available on line to the CSR I believe.  If you're still having problems, ask the CSR to run a signal check on the modem to see what shows up.  

 

Depending on what modem you have, a low signal level might not be an issue.  The white CODA-4582 typically runs in the 30 to 32/33 dBmV range for the upstream channels.  The black CGN3xxxx and CGNM-3552 will normally run in the 36 to 40 dBmV range.  In either case, the upstream levels are controlled by the buildings Multiple Dwelling Unit (MDU) or the Cable Modem Termination System (CMTS).  A large highrise/apartment type building will typically have one or more MDU's installed in the building's basement utility room to provide data services to the Rogers modems throughout the building.  Smaller apartment type buildings might be connected to an external CMTS, which is typical for residential neighbourhoods.  If the MDU or CMTS, is satisfied with a lower power level, thats not a bad thing.  But, there's always the possibility of a problem somewhere in the system.  

 

Just to see what's up, when you have time, can you log into the modem, navigate to the STATUS .... DOCSIS WAN tab, copy the Downstream Overview table, all the way down to the right hand bottom corner of the table.  Paste that into a post so that we can see what the modem is doing, in terms of inbound and outbound power levels.  



Re: Degradation in upload speed

Qubit
I Plan to Stick Around

Thanks so much for the reply. Here's the data you mentioned. What can you read from it? Thanks again!

 

Downstream Overview
Port IDFrequency (MHz)ModulationSignal strength (dBmV)Channel IDSignal noise ratio (dB)
1591000000256QAM4.200740.946
2849000000256QAM3.500238.983
3855000000256QAM3.600338.605
4861000000256QAM2.200438.605
5579000000256QAM4.100540.366
6585000000256QAM4.100638.983
7303000000256QAM5.000140.366
8597000000256QAM3.600838.605
9603000000256QAM3.100938.983
10609000000256QAM2.8001038.983
11615000000256QAM2.8001138.983
12621000000256QAM2.8001238.983
13633000000256QAM2.8001338.983
14639000000256QAM2.7001438.983
15645000000256QAM3.1001538.983
16651000000256QAM3.6001638.983
17657000000256QAM3.8001738.983
18663000000256QAM4.4001838.983
19669000000256QAM4.6001938.983
20675000000256QAM4.9002040.366
21681000000256QAM5.0002140.366
22687000000256QAM4.8002238.983
23693000000256QAM4.6002338.983
24699000000256QAM4.4002438.983
25705000000256QAM4.2002540.366
26711000000256QAM3.9002640.366
27717000000256QAM3.1002738.605
28723000000256QAM2.8002838.605
29825000000256QAM3.5002938.983
30831000000256QAM3.6003038.605
31837000000256QAM3.0003138.983
32843000000256QAM3.1003238.605
OFDM Downstream Overview
ReceiverFFT typeSubcarr 0 Frequency(MHz)PLC lockedNCP lockedMDC1 lockedPLC power(dBmv)
0NANANONONONA
14K290600000YESYESYES5.199997
Upstream Overview
Port IDFrequency (MHz)ModulationSignal strength (dBmV)Channel IDBandwidth
130596000ATDMA - 64QAM32.00016400000
238596000ATDMA - 64QAM34.00033200000
323700000ATDMA - 64QAM32.00026400000
OFDM/OFDMA Overview
Channel IndexStatelin Digital AttDigital AttBW (sc's*fft)Report PowerReport Power1_6FFT Size
0DISABLED0.50000.00000.0000-inf-1.00004K
1DISABLED0.50000.00000.0000-inf-1.00004K

Re: Degradation in upload speed

Qubit
I Plan to Stick Around

Frustration with really low upload speed on Gigabit internet 

 

Hello everyone,

 

I am really frustrated with Rogers due to a problem with the upload speeds on my Gigabit connection and how they haven't been able to solve it.

 

For more than a year I had been having  35 Mbps of upload speed. Now, since about a month and a half ago, without me doing anything,  is about 15 Mbps oscillating between 10 and 20.

 

I have been dealing with Rogers to try to get it solved for two months now to no avail: Technicians have come three times including a supervisor who confirmed that the upload speed is too low and did a million of troubleshooting steps (including, among other things, two modem swaps and connecting the modem directly to the network closet on the 10th floor of my building and testing wired connection on several plugs with several cables and connectors).  Technicians don't find problems with signal strength or anything else, yet the speed is very low. The issue was escalated to maintenance twice. Maintenance keeps saying that all is well and when I called rogers again to report that my problem persists they told me that the only thing they can do is send another technician.... There have been 3 of them already and I can't lose work time again! 

 

I am not sure what to do. I stream content form my place and I need the upload bandwidth. Is there any way I could escalate this to a higher instance??

 

Thanks so much in advance!

Re: Degradation in upload speed

Hello @Qubit,

 

We appreciate you posting your concern in our Community! I can imagine how totally frustrating it must be to be experiencing these issues with your Upload speeds especially when it was working fine for upwards of a year, until now. =(

 

Considering you've had numerous technicians on site including a supervisor it sounds like pretty much everything had been done to resolve this matter, to no avail. We would still like to review the notes on your file to see if there is anything that has not be done yet and take it from there. Please send us a Private Message to @CommunityHelps so we can pull up your info and get started on this.

 

If you are not familiar with our Private Messaging system please check out our Blog.

 

RogersTony

Re: Degradation in upload speed

toolcubed
I'm a Senior Contributor
So after reading this, I’m really worried that I’m going to end up in the same boat. My upload speed’s average has gotten lower and lower. Ever since node work was done in my neighbourhood on Oct 16 thru 18, my upload speeds have gotten progressively worse accompanied by upstream packet loss. Prior to the work, I would consistently get 20Mbps on my 500/20 plan with no packet loss. Since Oct 18, upload speeds became intermittent but I could randomly hit 20Mbps, dropping down to 3-5 Mbps in the evenings. Now my upload speeds max out at 10-12 with same drop to 3-5 at night. The technician that was here checked everything and said nothing was wrong. My signal levels are great and so are my SNR levels. Thinking it could be the modem, I swapped it but the issues persist. Everything points to an area problem, whether it’s a problem with the node, the CMTS, or noise caused by another source (neighbour?). The technician said exactly the same thing when he was here. Another technician is scheduled to come on Nov 5th, but I have to ask why??? I don’t want to waste any more time with this, nor should another technician’s time be wasted on it. Processes have to change at Rogers. There are a lot of things that just don’t make sense, like why you put customers thru 2 techs before a senior tech can come out, and why 3 techs have to come out before maintenance checks the area, ESPECIALLY when problems surface when maintenance has done work in the area!!!! Can anyone recommend what I can do next? I don’t want to wait another week for another tech to come, only to be told a 3rd tech has to come, and then to be told that maintenance has to look at it, and then to possibly be told there’s nothing wrong. There obviously IS something wrong and it’s obviously NOT a problem on my end as things were more than perfectly fine prior to the node work. Please please please, can Rogers be a little more pragmatic here and do the right thing? Send a maintenance crew to check the node and CMTS.

Re: Degradation in upload speed

meaculpa123
I've Been Here Awhile

I'm seeing the same upload issues now too: download speeds are good (on the gigabit package); uploads in the 5-7mbps range. Seems like the issue only started recently (within past week?). CSR opened a ticket for me, so will see what they say. As a datapoint, I'm in North York, in a condo; not sure if my neighbours are having issues.

Re: Degradation in upload speed

Noobcamper
I Plan to Stick Around

Same here, Upload speed dropped to 5-7 mbps Thursday/ Friday of last week (nov 1st or 2nd).

 

Rep told me to try swapping out the modem, but it's literally a week and a half old. Also on gigabit plan, download speeds seem fine.

 

Cambridge House

Re: Degradation in upload speed

meaculpa123
I've Been Here Awhile

For me, a technician came by, did a factory reset, which didn't solve the problem; he then swapped out the modem, but out-of-the-box was still slow. He then called IT (?) to get the modem firmware upgraded, and things were working fine after that. I don't know if the firmware upgrade on the original modem would've worked (it should have??) nor why firmware updates just aren't automatically applied in the first...

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